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Rails has won: The Elephant in the Room

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121–130 of 213 posts

Re: Rails has won: The Elephant in the Room

#121
post #83
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it made me smile when a non-technical friend had narrowed down the choice of languages for the project he wanted to build. "Python, Java or " Python and Java are relatively opposite ends of the web dev spectrum, and he didn't code so it was likely based on rants from the programmers around him. In the end his project failed because he couldn't find any Django devs to continue the project for a relatively low wa…

We're a small Django shop and I do weigh up this when deciding if we're the best option for a prospective client. If we build them a site then there is a maintenance cost that is potentially higher than there would be with a PHP site. Of course - the counter-argument is "a good PHP dev is no cheaper and just as hard to find" but for maintenance tasks you might only need an average (or even mediocre) dev - and it's a…

> average (or even mediocre) dev

doesn't mediocre mean average?

Re: Rails has won: The Elephant in the Room

#122
post #26

I'm sure I'm going to get piled on here, but whatever. I don't understand why those who spend most of their time writing web apps / CRUD apps focus so much on the tools they use to do it. "This framework's the best!" "No, this one is obviously better!" "My design pattern is better than your design pattern!" I don't know, maybe I'm a 32 year old curmudgeon, but I just don't see this in my area. I work at a lower level…

FTFY: "I don't understand why those who spend most of their time __using tools__ focus so much on the tools they use to do it." It should be more self-evident now. When there are many tools which meet the minimum requirements for doing a job, then the focus becomes not on which tool can do the job, but which tool you feel does the job the best (or you enjoy using). Carpenters argue about the best saws/drills, artists…

Except, really, none of those analogues are accurate. Professionals in the other fields identified don't argue about told the way programmers, and particularly web devs, do.

The kind of tool-centered identification and tribalism seen in large segments of the development community is not only rare among other professionals, it's seen (usually correctly) as a sign of being an amateur that doesn't know the craft well in other fields.

Re: Rails has won: The Elephant in the Room

#123

I never thought I'd hear myself say this, but the ASP.NET MVC/IDE is a better ecosystem than Rails now. No more missing bundle x, install devkit x,....just install visual studio 15 and get to work.

As long as you agree with the choices Microsoft makes. If you have a different opinion? Too bad.

[deleted]

Re: Rails has won: The Elephant in the Room

#124
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never had a problem moving to another language, I'll never understand why people pigeonhole themselves into categories like "rails dev" or "java dev". The fundamentals are transferable, I don't even mention specific technologies or stacks these days if I don't have to.

Well, two things. Lots of people are good on the mechanics of a particular stack and weak on the fundamentals, making the description accurate. And lots of people hire based on the assumption that expertise in a particular stack is the most important thing (perhaps in part as a result of the preceding point).

Definitely, which is how you end up with half of NPM's package repository.

Re: Rails has won: The Elephant in the Room

#125
Rails isn't the fastest or the smartest framework. It has weird choices, confusing aspects and some downright terrible defaults, but for me at least, it is the best framework and it has been for years for one simple reason: DOCUMENTATION!

Every few years or so, a bunch of these articles come out shouting from the roof tops, "Rails is dead!" and "Long live Rails!" They often like to praise some new framework, like Hanami, as the answer to all our woes, but they never seem to address documentation.

In my opinion, documentation is where Rails blows every other framework away. I have never been forced to read Rails' source code to understand how something works (I have read some of the source, but for fun, not out of need), and I can't say that about any of the other framework I've worked with. There's always some obscure method or class somewhere in them that does something unintuitive that I always have to look up. In Rails, finding the documentation on that method is as simple as a Google search, but in django, expressjs, or any of the others I've encountered, that documentation usually doesn't even exist at all.

Efficiency, scalability and reliability are all great, but when I'm starting a web app from scratch, they're really not that important. I can worry about those things once I have funding. In the meantime, I only need them to be good enough, and Rails defaults are usually good enough.

What I really need when I'm starting a new project and I'm working on a shoestring budget, is speed. I need to build something fast so I can get funded. Once I'm funded, then I can think about implementing JRuby or splitting code out into microservices or rewriting with another framework, but by then, I'll have the money to take my time. Until then, Rails is the perfect framework for me and I'll keep using it until it's not.

Re: Rails has won: The Elephant in the Room

#126

I never thought I'd hear myself say this, but the ASP.NET MVC/IDE is a better ecosystem than Rails now. No more missing bundle x, install devkit x,....just install visual studio 15 and get to work.

The problem is that it basically locks you out of the ecosystem of Linux/Unix and that is significantly larger and more important than the ecosystem of Rails.

Re: Rails has won: The Elephant in the Room

#127
post #5

Nice read. I understand the sentiment but I find the "win declaration" a bit too weird. How can one say "Rails won"? It's not like people will stop making web frameworks. Like any other software it will eventually be made obsolete by something newer and better. Maybe I am just nitpicking.

Rails won the past. There's a lot of legacy in it that's impractical to replace, which guarantees a sizable community, which makes it viable for new projects, if not always ideal, for quite some time. It's become what J2EE was when Rails was new. Decades from now, even if it's completely fallen out of favor for new development, there'll be people getting paid handsomely to maintain legacy Rails apps. It's won an impo…

J2EE wasn't even that old when Rails was new - maybe 4 or 5 years? But it offered an optimal path between the Scylla of J2EE architecture astronautism and the Charybdis of PHP spaghetti.

Re: Rails has won: The Elephant in the Room

#128

Rails isn't the fastest or the smartest framework. It has weird choices, confusing aspects and some downright terrible defaults, but for me at least, it is the best framework and it has been for years for one simple reason: DOCUMENTATION! Every few years or so, a bunch of these articles come out shouting from the roof tops, "Rails is dead!" and "Long live Rails!" They often like to praise some new framework, like Han…

Elixir and Phoenix is what you're looking for. Most of the goodness of Rails for productivity, without the long term bad decisions that come with it to force eventual rewrites when the funding comes. There's a reason Rails core guys have put so much time into it.

It gets every...single...dang...decision...right. I may never use another language unless forced because it's what I've spent years trying to find.

Re: Rails has won: The Elephant in the Room

#130
post #26

I'm sure I'm going to get piled on here, but whatever. I don't understand why those who spend most of their time writing web apps / CRUD apps focus so much on the tools they use to do it. "This framework's the best!" "No, this one is obviously better!" "My design pattern is better than your design pattern!" I don't know, maybe I'm a 32 year old curmudgeon, but I just don't see this in my area. I work at a lower level…

FTFY: "I don't understand why those who spend most of their time __using tools__ focus so much on the tools they use to do it." It should be more self-evident now. When there are many tools which meet the minimum requirements for doing a job, then the focus becomes not on which tool can do the job, but which tool you feel does the job the best (or you enjoy using). Carpenters argue about the best saws/drills, artists…

To a point, but then it is just self indulgence. Comparing camera gear is huge in the photography world, but making a great picture is rarely limited by the gear. People spend so much time arguing over gear they never take any pictures.

I see a lot of the same thing when people argue over programming tools. Just go build stuff in whatever tool you feel comfortable in. Do not lose site that building stuff is the goal, not using some tool.

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