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China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

washingtonpost.com

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Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#141

Post by Kristine1975 »

paradite wrote: post #133
slezyr wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can try to as them about tank man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Man

I, as well as my parents, my grandparents, and many other Chinese, know about the incident, but we do not necessarily agree with the Western media's opinions on it. After all, our parents were the ones that witnessed it, and they should have a better understanding of what really happened. You can read this article by Western media to get a different perspective: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/chinas-leader-talks-to-60-m…

>After all, our parents were the ones that witnessed it, and they should have a better understanding of what really happened.

Why? Were they everywhere? Did they witness everything? Do they remember perfectly?

Edit: Typo

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#143

Post by PavlovsCat »

bad_user wrote: post #67

Of course it does. I wouldn't bet that it will last though. I often tell people how I was born under communism and that what happened before 1989 in Romania and maybe in other Easter European countries makes the 1984 novel seem unrealistic and boring. We had far worst forms of censorship and propaganda, paranoia about being caught with doublethink by nosy neighbors was at al times high, yet everything looked normal,…

> as a country to violate basic human rights, as long as you're powerful enough

This hardly just applies to China though. I listened to a great talk by Tony Judt yesterday, this bit seems particularly relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNE83HXfGXo&t=28m28s

What you experienced were people who know they were oppressed by other people who know they are oppressing. Which is bad, but it's still a visible prison you can break out of, or you can at least hate it while you're stuck in it (don't think there are no unbreakable prisons). The free fall that follows the death of critical thought is much more sinister IMHO. It feels like there is nothing happening, because there is no friction worth mentioning, but it's still free fall.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for standing up for principles and not taking crap from any nation over it. I just am not of aware of a major nation that could do it credibly, they would have to clean their own house first.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#144

Post by appleflaxen »

studentrob wrote: post #126
appleflaxen wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Works means "is technically feasible". It doesn't matter if you think it's a good idea or not: the ruling class in China thinks it is. And any government who thinks it's a good idea in the future knows it's technically possible based on China's example.

Right, all they need to do is convince their population to abandon Facebook and use the government sanctioned social media. I'm sure that will go over well.

Agreed that the public won't abandon facebook.

But I don't understand what point you are making.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#145

Post by PavlovsCat »

bad_user wrote: post #132
justsaysmthng wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The far more aggravating thing is that we tolerate China, choose to do business with Chinese companies and buy Chinese products. A trade embargo (aka cold war) would be a lot worse for everyone involved.. Leads to arms race and threats of war, even less freedom and more injustice for the people (eg North Korea). > we are trading our values, for which people freaking died to win, for short term convenience .. Yeah,…

I don't think we have the same definition for freedom. Here's one freedom that we do have: I have the freedom to denounce China's attitude towards censorship and you're free to counteract with other arguments, leading us to dialog, on a public forum. And on people dying, that's just another way of saying that great sacrifice has been made for us to enjoy the lifestyle and freedoms that we do have, so we can't trade t…

> I have the freedom to denounce China's attitude towards censorship

Just like the Chinese have the freedom to denounce US imperalism. Now, try something more serious, like calling for actual Western war criminals, and those of Western allies, to be brought to court. You won't go to jail; because nobody (who matters) will listen to you. And what would happen if you managed to actually start something that had a real chance at getting people in front of a judge and behind bars, that we can just guess at, since nobody has done it before.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#146

Post by kristopolous »

bad_user wrote: post #67

Of course it does. I wouldn't bet that it will last though. I often tell people how I was born under communism and that what happened before 1989 in Romania and maybe in other Easter European countries makes the 1984 novel seem unrealistic and boring. We had far worst forms of censorship and propaganda, paranoia about being caught with doublethink by nosy neighbors was at al times high, yet everything looked normal,…

If a country has labor laws out of ostensible humanitarianism but then permits the sale of competing products made where no such laws exist, then it really isn't principled.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#148

Post by seletz »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #145
bad_user wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we have the same definition for freedom. Here's one freedom that we do have: I have the freedom to denounce China's attitude towards censorship and you're free to counteract with other arguments, leading us to dialog, on a public forum. And on people dying, that's just another way of saying that great sacrifice has been made for us to enjoy the lifestyle and freedoms that we do have, so we can't trade t…

> I have the freedom to denounce China's attitude towards censorship Just like the Chinese have the freedom to denounce US imperalism. Now, try something more serious, like calling for actual Western war criminals, and those of Western allies, to be brought to court. You won't go to jail; because nobody (who matters) will listen to you. And what would happen if you managed to actually start something that had a real…

Oh, I think Mr. Snowden would disagree on the "nobody has done it before." And he wasn't the first.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#149

Post by paradite »

Kristine1975 wrote: post #141
paradite wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I, as well as my parents, my grandparents, and many other Chinese, know about the incident, but we do not necessarily agree with the Western media's opinions on it. After all, our parents were the ones that witnessed it, and they should have a better understanding of what really happened. You can read this article by Western media to get a different perspective: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/chinas-leader-talks-to-60-m…

>After all, our parents were the ones that witnessed it, and they should have a better understanding of what really happened. Why? Were they everywhere? Did they witness everything? Do they remember perfectly? Edit: Typo

> Why? Where they everywhere?

They where [cis] not everywhere, but the incident was pretty widespread and every major city was having its "gathering". (Yes, western media does not care about that but that was what happened as they recounted). There is no way that someone living a major city did not know about it.

> Did they witness everything?

Regarding the actual facts, people have friends or colleagues who were working in Beijing so they could discuss it privately.

> Do they remember perfectly?

They don't have photographic memory but I am sure an incident like this would be memorable.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#150

Post by Hondor »

bad_user wrote: post #132
justsaysmthng wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The far more aggravating thing is that we tolerate China, choose to do business with Chinese companies and buy Chinese products. A trade embargo (aka cold war) would be a lot worse for everyone involved.. Leads to arms race and threats of war, even less freedom and more injustice for the people (eg North Korea). > we are trading our values, for which people freaking died to win, for short term convenience .. Yeah,…

I don't think we have the same definition for freedom. Here's one freedom that we do have: I have the freedom to denounce China's attitude towards censorship and you're free to counteract with other arguments, leading us to dialog, on a public forum. And on people dying, that's just another way of saying that great sacrifice has been made for us to enjoy the lifestyle and freedoms that we do have, so we can't trade t…

Just because people died, doesn't mean we have to honor them and keep hold of what they caused. That's the logic of Christianity. Most soldiers don't really die for any noble purpose, they just fight other soldiers and eventually somebody wins. Nobody knows if the winner will end up good or bad, free or oppressive. It doesn't matter if people got themselves killed because they happened to choose the winning side in a historic war. Those soldiers certainly didn't know what the consequences were going to be. They just followed their naive emotions and/or threats of violence from their governments.
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