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China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

washingtonpost.com

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Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#101

Post by SXX »

schuke wrote: post #50

Maybe it doesn't work. I've always wondered why, among so many long-ruling authoritarian regimes, China is almost the only one with such strict censorship. Yes there was the Arab Spring but look at Saudi Arabia, Russia, Belarus, Vietnam..., they don't ban Facebook yet the incumbents' rule do not face exceptionally greater challenge than China. Maybe all censorship does is to give the Communist Party is false sense of…

China don't have as much natural resources per citizen as Russia, don't have huge totalitarian sponsor next to like Belarus and don't have as much oil as Saudi Arabia. Never did any research on Vietnam so have no idea.

Reason why Russia regime still exist without heavy censorship is billions and billions of dollars burn to sustain level of consumption. Russian economy is nothing compared to China, but hey most of people there still able to earn more than average chinese and even more money dumped into Moscow (only city budget is $24B). So in past they just bought votes directly or indirectly instead of enforcing censorship.

But since oil prices are low and they run out of money there is more and more censorship appear. For instance more censorship-related laws adopted since 2014 than in 14 years prior that year.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#102

Post by azernik »

studentrob wrote: post #100

This article fails to define what "works" means Does censorship give China a better economy? Does it make people more happy? Safe? Does censorship eradicate certain ideas? Does it prevent people from communicating domestically or internationally? There's no data in the article that suggests any of this is true.

It keeps the Party in power. From the second sentence:

> preventing information harmful to the Communist Party from entering the country.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#103

Post by studentrob »

azernik wrote: post #102
studentrob wrote: post #100

This article fails to define what "works" means Does censorship give China a better economy? Does it make people more happy? Safe? Does censorship eradicate certain ideas? Does it prevent people from communicating domestically or internationally? There's no data in the article that suggests any of this is true.

It keeps the Party in power. From the second sentence: > preventing information harmful to the Communist Party from entering the country.

Does it? I'd say that has more to do with throwing protesters in prison for indefinite amounts of time with no trial.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#104

Post by studentrob »

schuke wrote: post #50

Maybe it doesn't work. I've always wondered why, among so many long-ruling authoritarian regimes, China is almost the only one with such strict censorship. Yes there was the Arab Spring but look at Saudi Arabia, Russia, Belarus, Vietnam..., they don't ban Facebook yet the incumbents' rule do not face exceptionally greater challenge than China. Maybe all censorship does is to give the Communist Party is false sense of…

> Maybe it's something else that's working and censorship is simply free-riding.

Yup. I'm sure throwing protesters in prison without trial helps, along with kidnapping Hong Kong booksellers, etc.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#105

Post by TeMPOraL »

zhte415 wrote: post #85
thaumasiotes wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a much bigger thing (Golden Shield) that involves submitting photocopies of IDs to get a mobile phone SIM I can assure you this is not current Chinese policy.

>> a much bigger thing (Golden Shield) that involves submitting photocopies of IDs to get a mobile phone SIM > I can assure you this is not current Chinese policy. It is the law: to get a SIM card, must submit ID card scan or passport scan.

Half a year ago in Shenzhen I did manage to buy a prepaid SIM card from a street vendor without showing any kind of identification whatsoever. I've heard about that law, and I know my friends had to show their passports to get SIM cards, but apparently the law isn't obeyed that much. Mind you - it wasn't some shady vendor, it was a random electronics store on a commercial street.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#106

Post by TeMPOraL »

studentrob wrote: post #92
narrator wrote: post #27

There would not be a hundred billion dollar ad industry if propaganda didn't work. We wouldn't run multi-million dollar presidential campaigns if propaganda didn't work. The whole field of social psychology and public relations would be a useless exercise if propaganda didn't work. This is the fundamental problem with democracy: people are easily influenced. The antecedents of the current Chinese communist party, the…

> This is the fundamental problem with democracy: people are easily influenced That's not a problem with democracy. It's how people learn. We learn something and form an opinion about it. The problem comes when only certain media sources are allowed. In that case, it's harder for people to discuss alternate viewpoints

No, the problem isn't when only certain media sources are allowed - honestly, the problem is when any media sources are allowed at all. Frankly, I think Amercians are as deceived by propaganda as the Chinese. Did we somehow forget in this thread that in western press, one can rarely find an article that isn't full of bullshit? Even if the reasons differ (western media do this for profit), the end result is the same.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#107

Post by studentrob »

catnaroek wrote: post #58
joe_the_user wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the many "the West is a problematic too" responses here a bit troubling. Not that I don't find the West problematic but the many problems of the West don't actually make China's problems any better and I'm not sure there are many who seem to think they do.

History suggests that China's main problems in the last couple of centuries were Japan and the West themselves. (Not that one can wish others out of existence.) Curtailing the influence of Western ideas makes perfect sense for them.

> History suggests that China's main problems in the last couple of centuries were Japan and the West themselves

Individuals take responsibility for themselves. Countries can too

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#108

Post by usrusr »

eva1984 wrote: post #14

Not surprising. And I doubt other country can do the same. Several factors makes China a unique case: 1. Massive domestic market, China along can have its own internet ecosystem, which is the fundamental reason why GFW can endure. 2.Conformist culture due to its Confucian tradition 3.Communist government has firm grasp of its power and stay vigilant to any sign or power that acts against it.

#1 trumps everything else. Try doing the same in a market the size of a typical European nation and you end up with an embarrassing digital backwater. Do it in a market the size of China and you can trail silicon valley by a few years at most, constantly gaining relative competitiveness as the global market of "online stuff" slows from wild, exiting exploration to establishment.

I suspect that #2 and #3 are far behind what I would put on #2, plain old language barrier, but I am surely no China expert.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#109

Post by wsuskc »

kitchi wrote: post #18

> VPN software is simple Can someone explain why VPN software is "simple"? I thought it encrypted your data so they cannot be inspected, plus if you tunnel over the HTTP/HTTPS ports how can VPN traffic be separated out from "regular" traffic?

>if you tunnel over the HTTP/HTTPS ports how can VPN traffic be separated out from "regular" traffic? it can't. that's why openvpn doesn't work in China but openvpn tunneled over stunnel (TLS proxy for arbitrary TCP streams) does.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#110

Post by IIAOPSW »

hamstergene wrote: post #40
IIAOPSW wrote: post #8

The Chinese own China and can decide for themselves what is best for their country. But as an American living in China, I fear that some of what I see here can and will happen in America one day.

If you're locked in a kitchen, even though there is more than one choice of food are you free to decide what to eat? What if you was born there and don't really know all variety options you could have? Centralized propaganda makes "freedom of choice" very controversial topic. Especially when its source has all the power to censor and prosecute.

You know, this is a great example. Let me continue the kitchen analogy.

Those of us born in the West are lead to think that being stuck in the kitchen sucks. That people stuck in the kitchen will suffer and/or be in a constant state of revolt and unhappiness. I know thats how I thought before I left (whether I realized it or not). Consequently we think that America is quite far from being stuck in the kitchen because things don't look remotely close to what we imagine being stuck looks like.

Let me tell you what's truly scary about China: the censorship, authoritarian rule, all the "stuck in the kitchen things" are a lot more palatable than we are lead to believe. The Americans have a cartoonish view of authoritarianism so-much-so that we will not recognize it on our own shores. That terrifies me and that's why I left my comment. I wish I had the words to explain this better.

I can't change China. Even if it was democratic I don't and shouldn't have a voice here. It is not my country. China belongs to the Chinese people, not to me. What I can say is that I don't want to see America copying China with respect to civil liberties.

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