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China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

washingtonpost.com

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Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#81

Post by Kristine1975 »

bad_user wrote: post #67

Of course it does. I wouldn't bet that it will last though. I often tell people how I was born under communism and that what happened before 1989 in Romania and maybe in other Easter European countries makes the 1984 novel seem unrealistic and boring. We had far worst forms of censorship and propaganda, paranoia about being caught with doublethink by nosy neighbors was at al times high, yet everything looked normal,…

>because we are trading our values

Just leaving this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_the_Uni...

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#82

Post by jokoon »

I don't really know if it's that much worrying. I mean can the entire world really criticize china, when you see so many companies having influence in democratically elected governments?

If you look at the political science of it, I think that this firewall is there to mitigate the potential instability of the chinese government. This is not new. I mean I'm okay with critics as long as it aims for progress, but the reality is that you don't just snap your fingers and "tada democracy"! So when you don't have democracy, you will have other ways to have a country that is peaceful and thriving enough. Restricted speech is one of those methods.

If you compare the situation in china with the west, it's not so different: there is still some influence between large corporations and government in western countries, and we don't like it either, and free speech doesn't always solve those problems. It's less corrupt, but I think China has really caught up.

I would be cautious about putting "free speech" on a pedestal. What works for western countries wouldn't necessarily do for countries which don't have the same customs, history, or culture. Free speech is one of those double edged swords that are well regulated in western countries, but is not in other parts of the world.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#83

Post by jonathankoren »

jondubois wrote: post #44
gohrt wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is "China" who picks "their" version? The Chinese Communist Party, or the Chinese people? How would China become dependent on the West if Chinese people had access to non-CommunityParty ideas?

Chinese people would be consuming western media through Facebook, Twitter etc... Through this media, they would be shown advertisements for US companies selling US products. Soon enough, Chinese people would no longer be content with Chinese-made goods and services from small Chinese suppliers (e.g. through decentralized marketplaces like Alibaba) - Instead they would start buying US goods through centralized marketp…

>Soon enough, Chinese people would no longer be content with Chinese-made goods and services from small Chinese suppliers

Seeing China's nouveau riche and the general demand for western luxury goods, and hell even Buicks, you don't know what you're talking about.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#84

Post by tellarin »

bsder wrote: post #16

I would argue that even without the Great Firewall, China starts isolated by the fact that its language isn't really shared by anybody else.

Nitpicking, but Mandarin Chinese is one of the official languages in Singapore (with English, Tamil, and Malay).

Also, there is an immense Chinese diaspora throughout the world (especially in neighbouring countries), of which many became multilingual and have access to other media and can still communicate back.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#85

Post by zhte415 »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #75
zhte415 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Original purpose? Multifaceted, but certainly not just internet focused, it was a part of a much bigger thing (Golden Shield) that involves submitting photocopies of IDs to get a mobile phone SIM to an urban alley-way with CCTV and a cartoon of a friendly cop pasted on the wall. >when a train wreck occurs, the Party prefers stick-to-the-facts news coverage over whose-to-blame social media mobs combating whose-to-blam…

> a much bigger thing (Golden Shield) that involves submitting photocopies of IDs to get a mobile phone SIM I can assure you this is not current Chinese policy.

>> a much bigger thing (Golden Shield) that involves submitting photocopies of IDs to get a mobile phone SIM

> I can assure you this is not current Chinese policy.

It is the law: to get a SIM card, must submit ID card scan or passport scan.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#86

Post by justsaysmthng »

bad_user wrote: post #67

Of course it does. I wouldn't bet that it will last though. I often tell people how I was born under communism and that what happened before 1989 in Romania and maybe in other Easter European countries makes the 1984 novel seem unrealistic and boring. We had far worst forms of censorship and propaganda, paranoia about being caught with doublethink by nosy neighbors was at al times high, yet everything looked normal,…

> The far more aggravating thing is that we tolerate China, choose to do business with Chinese companies and buy Chinese products.

A trade embargo (aka cold war) would be a lot worse for everyone involved.. Leads to arms race and threats of war, even less freedom and more injustice for the people (eg North Korea).

> we are trading our values, for which people freaking died to win, for short term convenience ..

Yeah, we do that with Russia, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iraq and many more. That's the essence of business - trade one thing for another. We trade our "freedom to do whatever we want" for a salary. We trade our "freedom to party" for the happiness of raising a child... It's one of those laws of life which we might not entirely like, but cannot escape.

> people freaking died to win

People die - that's the only absolute we can rely on. Don't get carried away with "dying for .. something", most often this is not true - most died because delusional leaders sent them into battle ... only after the fact their death got dressed into "honorable cause"..

In the end, the higher morals are dictated by whoever managed to seize power..

Which, by the way brings us back to the censorship thing..

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#88

Post by nbevans »

13of40 wrote: post #38
nullnullnullnil wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just got back from a few months in China. These services are definitely blocked through DPI. It's frustrating. It's also interesting what happens to your mind when you can't read what you'd like to, talk about what you'd like to, and revert the accepted status quo for everything.

While you were there, did you get a feel for whether people there would pay for a semi-reliable bridge through the firewall?

"Will they pay for freedom"? Seriously?

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#89

Post by SFJulie »

You can censor by scarcity (China) or censor by overabundance of trivia (Western).

When Kardashian out weigth cultural news, PR of corps outweigth economical analysis, half baked tutorial replaces consistent tutorial, unproven science replaces science : you drown signal in noise.

How many Western citizens have read that the middle eastern wars are mainly about the top 4 weapon dealers (UK, USA, Fr, Russia) bribing locals (see #clintonmails & #panamapapers) in order to ensure the growth of their economy and the disposal of scarce resources (oil, Phosphate, Uranium, Copper, Gold)?

How many citizens knows that we are fueling education/health bubbles based on good intentions (NHS) without control (incompetence?) that results in counter productive results?

There are 2 ways to censor: cut the access to information (earth friendly solution) or hide the information in a haystack (resulting in 2-3% of global energy burned in spin doctoring).

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#90

Post by malka »

zhte415 wrote: post #85
thaumasiotes wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a much bigger thing (Golden Shield) that involves submitting photocopies of IDs to get a mobile phone SIM I can assure you this is not current Chinese policy.

>> a much bigger thing (Golden Shield) that involves submitting photocopies of IDs to get a mobile phone SIM > I can assure you this is not current Chinese policy. It is the law: to get a SIM card, must submit ID card scan or passport scan.

The law, and how it is applied are 2 different things. Especially in an authoritarian state.
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