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China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

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Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#71

Post by chrischen »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #64
jondubois wrote: post #33

The Great Firewall actually makes a lot of sense. Everyone thinks of themselves as being rational and unbiased - But in fact, we are all irrational, biased and at times hypocritical. Those people who think that they are rational and objective are usually the least rational and most hypocritical of all because they lack self-awareness. As westerners, as much as we like to pretend that we know the whole truth, in reali…

This is known as the "And you are lynching negroes" argument, from the Soviet rhetorical tactic used to deflect attention from their own human rights abuses without actually having to address them. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes > If China wasn't so protecive, they would have become economically dependent on the west (as opposed to being the powerhouse they are today). You're claiming…

They censor outside influence and ideas that are influenced from the outside. Obviously ideas that infect people within China would be in practice censoring "Chinese" people.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#72

Post by charoko »

gohrt wrote: post #46
IIAOPSW wrote: post #8

The Chinese own China and can decide for themselves what is best for their country. But as an American living in China, I fear that some of what I see here can and will happen in America one day.

The Chinese do not control China. The Chinese Communist Party controls China.

"The CPC is currently the world's second largest political party with a membership of 87.79 million as of 2015.

To join the party, an applicant must be 18 years of age, and must spend a year as a probationary member. In contrast to the past, when emphasis was placed on the applicants' ideological criteria, the current CPC stresses technical and educational qualifications."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_China

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#73

Post by swang »

chrischen wrote: post #70
swang wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah man, good thing china is shielding its people from the history massacre at tiananmen square or the random killing of people who disagree with the government. and how about even being unable to speak about how much of a womanizer (and thus a hypocrite) mao was because you fear for your life. how would any of that make china vulnerable economically to the west? i mean they're already doing a good job of that thems…

Martin Luther King was also a womanizer, and Western media self-censors that aspect of him. Propaganda and bias happens everywhere.

uhm, no? you are free and open to say MLK was a womanizer. like literally right now you are allowed to post this onto HN with no repercussions to your well being. try printing that mao was a womanizer in a chinese newspaper.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#74

Post by chrischen »

argonaut wrote: post #60
jgreen10 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I'm in Russia, I find the state-controlled media surprisingly critical of government policy and very outward looking. They are clearly ignoring the elephant in the room: the country being an ungovernable pool of corruption that can only be kept together by instilling nationalism and foreign threats and an authoritarian leader, but then again, it's not like US media are really asking critical questions. With or w…

The US media as a whole may not be asking critical questions, but that's not the point of free press. The fact is that the US media is free to ask critical questions, and therefore some , though not all, of the media ask critical questions. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Free to still allows another way to allow the powerful to control and manipulate.

In order to truly be a free system the system has to be fair as well, which means more income equality in addition to a free press system.

If money controls the "free" press and money distribution is heavily skewed, then it's not really a free press. This is how the US system works.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#75

Post by thaumasiotes »

zhte415 wrote: post #65
eob wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China's firewall is largely constructed to create technology transfer towards China. That's been a huge effect of the GFW, but is there material indicating it was the original purpose? My understanding was that much of the explosion in Chinese censorship tech happened as a way to prevent social media from gaining control over the news cycle. (i.e., when a train wreck occurs, the Party prefers stick-to-the-facts new…

Original purpose? Multifaceted, but certainly not just internet focused, it was a part of a much bigger thing (Golden Shield) that involves submitting photocopies of IDs to get a mobile phone SIM to an urban alley-way with CCTV and a cartoon of a friendly cop pasted on the wall. >when a train wreck occurs, the Party prefers stick-to-the-facts news coverage over whose-to-blame social media mobs combating whose-to-blam…

> a much bigger thing (Golden Shield) that involves submitting photocopies of IDs to get a mobile phone SIM

I can assure you this is not current Chinese policy.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#76

Post by akira2501 »

jondubois wrote: post #33

The Great Firewall actually makes a lot of sense. Everyone thinks of themselves as being rational and unbiased - But in fact, we are all irrational, biased and at times hypocritical. Those people who think that they are rational and objective are usually the least rational and most hypocritical of all because they lack self-awareness. As westerners, as much as we like to pretend that we know the whole truth, in reali…

> [...] we know the whole truth, in reality, what we know is only a biased approximation of it.

well.. clearly, censorship is the answer, then.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#77

Post by chrischen »

hamstergene wrote: post #40
IIAOPSW wrote: post #8

The Chinese own China and can decide for themselves what is best for their country. But as an American living in China, I fear that some of what I see here can and will happen in America one day.

If you're locked in a kitchen, even though there is more than one choice of food are you free to decide what to eat? What if you was born there and don't really know all variety options you could have? Centralized propaganda makes "freedom of choice" very controversial topic. Especially when its source has all the power to censor and prosecute.

This article by Google's design ethicist shows how even in a free market world we end up with false freedoms. For example, if Facebook suggests posts from your friends, how do you know you have control of who you become friends with and interact with? How does Netflix's suggestions influence what movies you know about.

He shows that even in our free world we're still influenced by propaganda that makes us have a false sense of freedom of choice.

https://medium.com/@tristanharris/how-technology-hijacks-peo...

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#78

Post by frahs »

chrischen wrote: post #70
swang wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah man, good thing china is shielding its people from the history massacre at tiananmen square or the random killing of people who disagree with the government. and how about even being unable to speak about how much of a womanizer (and thus a hypocrite) mao was because you fear for your life. how would any of that make china vulnerable economically to the west? i mean they're already doing a good job of that thems…

Martin Luther King was also a womanizer, and Western media self-censors that aspect of him. Propaganda and bias happens everywhere.

There's a difference between biased reporting and citizens being forbidden from talking about something online.

If you made the same post but about some Chinese politician and in China, you could get in trouble for that.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#79

Post by studentrob »

bad_user wrote: post #67

Of course it does. I wouldn't bet that it will last though. I often tell people how I was born under communism and that what happened before 1989 in Romania and maybe in other Easter European countries makes the 1984 novel seem unrealistic and boring. We had far worst forms of censorship and propaganda, paranoia about being caught with doublethink by nosy neighbors was at al times high, yet everything looked normal,…

> The far more aggravating thing is that we tolerate China, choose to do business with Chinese companies and buy Chinese products.

A lot of people view trade, tourism and internet communications as a means of fostering diplomacy and preventing war.

I wouldn't say we have traded our values. Companies with bad work environments overseas aren't immune to negative perceptions from home.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#80

Post by charoko »

nullnullnullnil wrote: post #26
mc32 wrote: post #4

Why is it surprising that it works? It comes from strength as well as buy-in. People know its censored, but they accept the bargain. In this case, I think Chinese buying the Han homogeneity helps in that there isn't an us vs them struggle. But rather an us vs the agitators mentality. And being nationalistic [affinity to the homeland] helps. So long as people see the service provided by the government to be worth the…

FWIW, my personal experience says differently. I recently got back from a few months in China, and while I was there I had a conversation with a young man who was 100% convinced Tiananmen Square was a rumor started by anti government 'bad guys'.

Just curious, but did you talk to them in English or Mandarin? I've found that if I talk to locals in Mandarin, even if broken Mandarin, they are more willing to tell me the truth.

Whereas if I talk to them in English, they become defensive and think I'm criticizing them.

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