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Japan adding mandatory programming education to all elementary schools
61–70 of 195 posts
Re: Japan adding mandatory programming education to all elementary schools
#62This may not be a good idea. Code is one of those things that by itself sucks until you have a reason or purpose to use it. I started learning coding around age ~9 in 1996 or so. But what got me hooked was websites, because I could use the code to build fan sites or accomplish real, purposeful tasks. I feel like just shoving code at kids isn't going to do much unless they are also incentivized to use it somehow.
You say you started learning at 9 -- I started much later and regret it -- why not get others started sooner?
What age much later than nine years old did you begin programming?
Re: Japan adding mandatory programming education to all elementary schools
#63Just a little bit of programming can be powerful. If I were designing an elementary school course, it would focus on two things: 1) How to clean data. Real world data is always dirty. It mixes strings and ints, has commas and quotes where they shouldn't be, etc. Knowing how to think of data in terms of a standard format and having a plan for exceptions is very important. 2) How to manipulate data. Python, JS, or some…
If you treat it like alegbra, the average school kid will know about as much programming as they know algebra 1 year after graduating (i.e. nothing).
They can learn all the basics of programming by making a game of their choice (with some guidance to make sure they're not over-scoping it).
Re: Japan adding mandatory programming education to all elementary schools
#64Wow, in 20 years Japan will be producing some amazing technology. I think people underestimate how transformative an understanding of programmatic problem solving can be. I'd put it only slightly under literacy.
I would put it on the same level as literacy and basic arithmetic. It exposes you to entirely know ways to solve problems, a basic understanding of computer science on a societal level would be amazing.
There's no way it is on the same level as literacy and basic arithmetic, at least not for decades if not longer. Literacy rates in the modern world are close to 100%, near the same can add and subtract. Programmatic thinking requires much more effort and skill, at least right now, and that's why we are getting hella paid. It's almost like saying accounting or medicine is the same level as literacy. Or on the low end of education and vocational skills, carpentry or plumbing.
Not everyone will know how to be a plumber, a doctor, an accountant, or a software developer, and that's just fine. Most people should know how to read and count and that is also fine.
Re: Japan adding mandatory programming education to all elementary schools
#65The value, I think, is that Japanese society as a whole will at least appreciate programming. Whether that appreciation is as a craft that is not always so easy, or as something that sometimes even approaches art, I do not know, but some of today's kids will be the ones who grow up to either approve or disapprove future projects. An understanding sown in youth and shared by a generation goes a long way.
Idont think it will make any difference at all. Do you think people have an appreciation for Geography or History even though they all had exposure to it during school? Most of the time it aint the case.
A generation or two down the line, history may record that this was an important event in Japanese history. And perhaps, as you imply, that sentence in a history book will be glossed over by generations even farther in the future. The populace may not even know how their society came to be what it is. But the government, I think, is envisioning a certain future, and planting the seeds to create that future.
Re: Japan adding mandatory programming education to all elementary schools
#66Wow, in 20 years Japan will be producing some amazing technology. I think people underestimate how transformative an understanding of programmatic problem solving can be. I'd put it only slightly under literacy.
Considering how long English has been mandatory and what the average level of English proficiency actually is, it might be a little too early to be overly optimistic. The potential is there, but it will depend mostly on the execution and based on current experience I wouldn't expect too much.
Why be optimistic at all? The more people are able to code, the less demand for it, the less salaries of the programmers.
Re: Japan adding mandatory programming education to all elementary schools
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
> How to effectively google Sounds good > how to bring up a terminal, ssh to another machine Uhh, even as a developer I barely ever feel I need to do this (and frankly, I do this quite often). Being able to ssh into another machine is extremely low on the list of things to learn before being proficient.
maybe. but text mode is pretty fundamental really. It could be powershell or anything I guess, as long as it had files and commands and was both interactive and scriptable
From your perspective maybe. My whole family use computers daily, some do it at work as well I guess and I would bet the number of times they have needed to go into a shell would be exactly zero.
I doubt they even know about terminals to be honest. Simply not needed.
Re: Japan adding mandatory programming education to all elementary schools
#68In Japan, English is already mandatory, yet, English fluency sucks. Japan recognizes the problem, but doesn't know what to do about it. Basically, English education has yet to succeed. [1][2]
This is the thing about Japan. They can make these moves that are incredibly progressive and ambitious -- visionary even, yet, they really have no idea how to go about doing it.
As it stands, they don't have enough teachers that can program, so teachers from other subjects will be filling in picking up the material from textbooks as they go along.
From what I've witnessed from my school years, I guarantee you the smarter students will be correcting their teachers and making a mockery of them. It happens whenever there is an English native speaker in a Japanese English class (guilty as charged), and it will happen whenever there is a real programmer in one of these "programming" classes -- at least for the foreseeable future.
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[1] http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2015/03/28/editorials/di...
[2] http://www.japantoday.com/category/lifestyle/view/whats-wron...
Re: Japan adding mandatory programming education to all elementary schools
#69This may not be a good idea. Code is one of those things that by itself sucks until you have a reason or purpose to use it. I started learning coding around age ~9 in 1996 or so. But what got me hooked was websites, because I could use the code to build fan sites or accomplish real, purposeful tasks. I feel like just shoving code at kids isn't going to do much unless they are also incentivized to use it somehow.
You just described Mathematics. For the longest time, it was just something I did because people told me to. They judged me on how well I could complete a problem so I did the problems... I hope to god we don't go down the same path for Programming.
He also just described English education in Japan. Students just complete problems, and even those that do well never learn to speak English just through these classes.
Re: Japan adding mandatory programming education to all elementary schools
#70In Japan, English is already mandatory, yet, English fluency sucks. Japan recognizes the problem, but doesn't know what to do about it. Basically, English education has yet to succeed. [1][2] This is the thing about Japan. They can make these moves that are incredibly progressive and ambitious -- visionary even, yet, they really have no idea how to go about doing it. As it stands, they don't have enough teachers that…
if they are so progressive they could hire teachers over the internet (form USA, UK, Australia etc)