Anyone have any thoughts as to why they would take the bottom up approach (ie, start with elementary and go up) rather than top down?
what do you mean top down?
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Japan adding mandatory programming education to all elementary schools
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Re: Japan adding mandatory programming education to all elementary schools
#12It's going to be butchered like English class to point of utter uselessness, no?
It's like learning Spanish and then totally and utterly forgetting it. What is then, the leftover value after one finish his secondary education?
Re: Japan adding mandatory programming education to all elementary schools
#13Maybe they should also find something for those programmers to do as well, while they're at it. The job market for software engineering in Tokyo is equivalent to a Minneapolis or an Atlanta even with 20x the population - and even then I might be overselling it. Look at the culture and the accomplishments of a place like Rakuten, and plot a way forward from that to a tech powerhouse. I don't see it.
I don't really see what you're getting at. Yeah, the salaries are depressed, but all salaries in Tokyo are depressed, it's part of a general trend. And Rakuten does a lot of stuff. There are also places like GMO that do things. This is kind of like complaining that Ebay isn't a tech powerhouse. That's totally fine
Point taken, but to clarify I was saying "plot a way forward for Japan to become a tech powerhouse, when a company like Rakuten is about the pinnacle of what they can achieve as far as technology companies go". And you can't really just say "they can do X, Y, and Z" if X, Y, and Z are things that are totally unrealistic to expect Japan corporate culture to do. Even Rakuten is considered "weird" to the point of apostasy among Japanese corporations, and I promise you would not find it particularly enriching to work there either from a creativity standpoint or even just for basic work/life balance.
It's just difficult to imagine how a world-class tech company can rise up from Japanese business culture, at least on time scales that don't span decades. (For me, anyway, YMMV I guess.)
Re: Japan adding mandatory programming education to all elementary schools
#14This may not be a good idea. Code is one of those things that by itself sucks until you have a reason or purpose to use it. I started learning coding around age ~9 in 1996 or so. But what got me hooked was websites, because I could use the code to build fan sites or accomplish real, purposeful tasks. I feel like just shoving code at kids isn't going to do much unless they are also incentivized to use it somehow.
Many (all?) subjects that are taught at schools are already like that. People don't see the value until they need the skills.
Re: Japan adding mandatory programming education to all elementary schools
#15Anyone have any thoughts as to why they would take the bottom up approach (ie, start with elementary and go up) rather than top down?
It would be idea to start in secondary/high school as in educations in Singapore does.
Re: Japan adding mandatory programming education to all elementary schools
#16It's going to be butchered like English class to point of utter uselessness, no? It's like learning Spanish and then totally and utterly forgetting it. What is then, the leftover value after one finish his secondary education?
It's like learning Spanish and then totally and utterly forgetting it. What is then, the leftover value after one finish his secondary education?
I'm not sure that's true. Programming intrinsically requires logical thinking and problem-solving. So it has the potential to shape young brains and teach them cognitive skills that will stay with them for the long-term, whether or not they remember certain techniques or languages.
It's like math. Do I remember how to derive the quadratic formula? Heck, no. I can't even remember what it is, I'd have to look it up on Google. I'm sure I could do it again if I really wanted to though. But I bet my cognitive skills are better today because I at one point in time learned to derive the quadratic formula in my math class, among many other things.
edit: It's like how Lego and models helps kids to learn spatial skills and fine motor skills. There are lots of things that teach skills taken for granted by adults, but aren't readily apparent to children unless they're thrown into a situation where they use them.
Re: Japan adding mandatory programming education to all elementary schools
#17It's going to be butchered like English class to point of utter uselessness, no? It's like learning Spanish and then totally and utterly forgetting it. What is then, the leftover value after one finish his secondary education?
I don't see much leftover value, but I do see benefit in increasing exposure to programming for all kids at a young age. Most will forget it, but for the interested ones it could be a gateway into further learning.
Re: Japan adding mandatory programming education to all elementary schools
#18[deleted]
Re: Japan adding mandatory programming education to all elementary schools
#19Maybe they should also find something for those programmers to do as well, while they're at it. The job market for software engineering in Tokyo is equivalent to a Minneapolis or an Atlanta even with 20x the population - and even then I might be overselling it. Look at the culture and the accomplishments of a place like Rakuten, and plot a way forward from that to a tech powerhouse. I don't see it.
I'd guess mandatory programming languages won't have much impact on the amount of people who go into programming as a profession.
I'm torn on the utility of it; unless you're actively working in it the information degrades very quickly. And unlike spoken languages, if you try to come back to it later very little of what you learned before is still valid.
Classes on general computing - and not "coding" - would seem far more useful than teaching kids Python 2.x for a few years. But at the same time those would be far less accessible.
Re: Japan adding mandatory programming education to all elementary schools
#20It's going to be butchered like English class to point of utter uselessness, no? It's like learning Spanish and then totally and utterly forgetting it. What is then, the leftover value after one finish his secondary education?
I used to think English was useless too until I had to read other people's documentation. The world would be a better place if smart programmers were also competent at writing documentation and comments.
I've seen crazy things like punctuation placed in the middle of a sentence. I had to ask, "Is this one sentence or two?" People not using appropriate paragraphs, no headings, rambling sentences etc ...
A little bit of proof reading, editing and formatting goes a long way.