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Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

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Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#51

Post by hliyan »

vonklaus wrote: post #24
hliyan wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own a 2014 Nissan Leaf. Except for the battery and motor, almost every technology in the car is what you'd find in a regular vehicle. Any obsolescence can be dealt with by a battery upgrade (motors are a century old technology, I doubt that'll improve much in 5-10 years).

ahhh gotcha, so just the internal energy source and the part that locomotes it. Nothing too important then, eh? edit: yes, it was a joke. However, not for nothing, this is still a bizarre comment indicating that only the highy technical nuances in the car are nuances and that it should be trivial to swap them out. The battery is tied to the drive train each having a highly specialized and proprietary function. The po…

This is wrong. The battery is not tied to the drive train. Given the same electrical interface, dimensions and a compatible BMS, swapping out for a lighter, cheaper battery IS trivial. Even cell level replacement is possible -- it's actually happening commercially where I live.

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#52

Post by NotSammyHagar »

Animats wrote: post #8
omellet wrote: post #2

Now they'll just be held back by lack of a widespread charging infrastructure.

The next big problem is the lack of a unified charging infrastructure. Yes, you can buy a trunk full of adapters.[1] Teslas use their own plug, for which there are a CHAdeMO adapter, a J1772 adapter, and adapters for standard 120VAC and 240VAC outlets. A full set of adapters is about $700. [2] The Chevy Bolt uses Combo Cord, which supports J1772 and CCS. Looking around Silicon Valley, almost all charging points have…

Yes, but you don't need chademo. Your car comes with 120 and 220v, plus j1172, plus you don't need an adapter for superchargers. So $0 additional cost. Plus it comes with the wall charger. So you might live in a place with Chademo, but its only useful if it exists, and there is no high power charger. So the extra set would $450, but you actually need $0 extra - and it fits in the corner of the trunk. I've owned a tesla since 2012, and I don't have chademo. I've spent exactly $0 extra on the plugs you suggest. I have been from seattle to portland, eastern washington, Vancouver BC, Whistler, Banff. Just using regular j1772 and superchargers.

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#54

Post by Animats »

8note wrote: post #42
dredmorbius wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a real problem and a real concern. An EV essentially is a car with a very expensive fuel tank (the battery), made out of specific materials and properties. While it is efficient in energy use and can make use of fungible electricity, lithium is rare, limited to specific areas of concentration, and can (as any material) only be partially recycled. There's lithium elsewhere on Earth, or more precisely, in seawa…

There's someone in Halifax researching Sodium Batteries, which would be a fair bit easier to find than lithium, though less effective.

Sodium batteries have been around since the 1960s.[1] They're a high-temperature battery, 90°C and upwards. Ford built some experimental vans with sodium-sulfur batteries in 1991. Two of them caught fire. That technology was abandoned for mobile applications.

There's still interest in this for stationary energy storage on power-grid scale. But not for mobile. Sodium catches fire if exposed to air.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium%E2%80%93sulfur_battery

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#55

Post by gumby »

8note wrote: post #42
dredmorbius wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a real problem and a real concern. An EV essentially is a car with a very expensive fuel tank (the battery), made out of specific materials and properties. While it is efficient in energy use and can make use of fungible electricity, lithium is rare, limited to specific areas of concentration, and can (as any material) only be partially recycled. There's lithium elsewhere on Earth, or more precisely, in seawa…

There's someone in Halifax researching Sodium Batteries, which would be a fair bit easier to find than lithium, though less effective.

Sodium batteries run at very high temperature and are finicky. They have been used for decades on submarines where they can be managed by trained personnel and where a large heat sink is available. I would be wary of consumer sodium based batteries.

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#56

Post by trhway »

8note wrote: post #42
dredmorbius wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a real problem and a real concern. An EV essentially is a car with a very expensive fuel tank (the battery), made out of specific materials and properties. While it is efficient in energy use and can make use of fungible electricity, lithium is rare, limited to specific areas of concentration, and can (as any material) only be partially recycled. There's lithium elsewhere on Earth, or more precisely, in seawa…

There's someone in Halifax researching Sodium Batteries, which would be a fair bit easier to find than lithium, though less effective.

another one is potassium, and giving that the future is metal-air batteries, potassium works great there (its oxide seems to behave better for recharging in that scheme than lithium's)

Wrt. possible short-term lithium supply issues, i can see how Musk would just build a new mine operation if necessary, like a Giga-ship to mine it from seawater :)

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#57

Post by haikuginger »

vonklaus wrote: post #6

obviously Tesla is the front runner for spearheading the insudtry by virtually every metric & subsector (except maybe price). Look, I love Tesla and have been bullish on the company for a pretty long time, so I am biased, but why can't other car companies have quality cars and aesthetics. * Fisker Karma: The car looked super sleek, was super sexy and from an engineering standpoint it was a heap of shit. * Chevy Volt:…

I recall reading an article (can't find it at the moment) that suggested that the ugliness of hybrid/electric vehicles was, in general, a deliberate move; that people buying an EV didn't actually want an EV (even if they thought they did); they wanted their neighbors to think they wanted an EV, and designing EVs in a distinctive style allowed that market to be tapped much more effectively than if EVs had followed the design patterns of IC vehicles.

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#58

Post by ebbv »

gnicholas wrote: post #50
ebbv wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Right now, electrics comprise a tiny part of the automobile market share. Yet Tesla is already running into supply issues, particularly with lithium as there are only 3 companies in the world that do industrial-scale lithium mining, that too in a handful of mines around the world. Why would any consumer have to care at all about this? If it really becomes a problem the price of EVs will go up and then people won't…

Consumers should absolutely consider whether we are on a sustainable growth curve. How common will electric charging stations be if it turns out that EVs can't rise above 10% of the total car market? If hydrogen-powered cars all of a sudden became the norm, EV drivers will be much less well-served than if EV sales continue to scale (as most EV purchasers probably assume they will).

> How common will electric charging stations be if it turns out that EVs can't rise above 10% of the total car market?

One of the beauties of EVs is you don't need charging stations. I leased a Nissan LEAF 2 years ago, and it almost only gets charged at home.

You can't really know whether EVs are going to take over or not, it depends on too many factors. If our government gets bamboozled with Hydrogen the way they did with Ethanol, then yeah Hydrogen cars could become more popular than EVs.

But I would argue that even in that world, EVs are the better choice. They are lower maintenance and like I said, you don't need refueling stations. Your car refuels while it's parked in your garage.

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#59

Post by sowbug »

gnicholas wrote: post #50
ebbv wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Right now, electrics comprise a tiny part of the automobile market share. Yet Tesla is already running into supply issues, particularly with lithium as there are only 3 companies in the world that do industrial-scale lithium mining, that too in a handful of mines around the world. Why would any consumer have to care at all about this? If it really becomes a problem the price of EVs will go up and then people won't…

Consumers should absolutely consider whether we are on a sustainable growth curve. How common will electric charging stations be if it turns out that EVs can't rise above 10% of the total car market? If hydrogen-powered cars all of a sudden became the norm, EV drivers will be much less well-served than if EV sales continue to scale (as most EV purchasers probably assume they will).

Most hydrogen-powered cars are electric cars. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle (listing upcoming hydrogen vehicles, all using fuel cells).

And that's actually the point of switching cars to electricity: we have many sustainable ways of making electricity, and zero ways of sustainably making gasoline. Get cars running on electricity, then continue building out the infrastructure.

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#60

Post by vonklaus »

hliyan wrote: post #51
vonklaus wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ahhh gotcha, so just the internal energy source and the part that locomotes it. Nothing too important then, eh? edit: yes, it was a joke. However, not for nothing, this is still a bizarre comment indicating that only the highy technical nuances in the car are nuances and that it should be trivial to swap them out. The battery is tied to the drive train each having a highly specialized and proprietary function. The po…

This is wrong. The battery is not tied to the drive train. Given the same electrical interface, dimensions and a compatible BMS, swapping out for a lighter, cheaper battery IS trivial. Even cell level replacement is possible -- it's actually happening commercially where I live.

Again, this isn't my area, but conventional ICE vehicles are typically a total loss if they need the entire engine & gas tank replaced. So, again, I am sure I am not totally correct/wrong here in the entirety but my point was just that:

> Except for the battery and motor, almost every technology in the car is what you'd find in a regular vehicle.

This statement I found funny because it was stating that the core technological difference between ICEs and EVs was the energy source and the motor. Again, I didn't mean to be insulting here, it's just like, no one thought it was the windshield wipers, so I made a joke about it. However, this second part:

> Any obsolescence can be dealt with by a battery upgrade (motors are a century old technology, I doubt that'll improve much in 5-10 years).

I am highly suspect of. Again, I have no reason not to believe you, but realistically you would have to get the battery from Nissan as it would be prohibitively expensive from a 3rd party and likely void the warranty. Hence why I said a fun software project but not something an average user would employ as the core battery pack[0] is buried under the entire enterior and interfaces through wht are almost certainly proprietary connections and closed API/systems.

Also, and again this is going on statements made by Nissan which are self-serving[1] Nissan is swapping 5 batteries a year and recycles 15-20. So I was simply pointing out that if we back out the 2016 statistic back to when Nissan launched the leafin Dec 2010, they would be somewhere around 6y * 5 = 30 replacements span of the fleet. So, I was just poking a bit of fun in jest at what you sort of intimated was just a casually routine procedure.

Again, you are correct[2], like they do have a battery replacement program and you can rent/pay to be in it as of 2014. I am just pointing out that these are the core differences between ICEs and EVs.

> Given the same electrical interface, dimensions and a compatible BMS, swapping out for a lighter, cheaper battery IS trivial.

Again, after reading this, I realized you could be trolling. Like, of course that's correct, if you take away the proprietary elecrical interface which is likely hardware/connections AND software based, found/built a compatible BMS, e.g. the core Battery Management System of the deeply integrated cell chemistry with the electrical internals that support it and likely interface with a larger system at the pack and vehicle levels...and you take apart the entire interior of your vehicle to get at the battery which is under all 4 seats and the carpet...disconnect all the wiring which runs throughout the entirety of your car...then remove the 480lb pack and get at the 192 subcells...

then yeah, it's like super trivial. So easy a caveman can do it. But again, I was just sort of having a laugh (not at your expense might I add) at how you just sort of casually imply that except this super (unique/difficult/X) stuff then Y is essentially trivial. But it's not a big deal, I just wouldn't imply it is as common place as you did.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#/media/File:2013_N...

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#Battery

[2]http://www.autoblog.com/2013/06/20/nissan-leaf-battery-repla...

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