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Top developers can have a life outside coding

belenalbeza.com

221–230 of 241 posts

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#221
post #9

I think this article is detached from reality. Most people who contribute to OS are on low income, unemployed or students. Top developers in banks and startups dont have time for that, or are forbidden by their company. Being "top developer" is one of the most family friendly jobs that ever existed. You can work remotely at your own time. I quit cubicle and started working on opensource because I had family. > you mi…

>> > 20-year-old white guys with no responsibilities and/or with enough income to "buy" more free time

> Good old racism and man hate is doing just fine.

This is a strange generalization indeed. Esp. considering that the post author maintains an active technical blog and speaks at events (I assume these activities take about the same amount of resources as hobby open source development).

PS I don't know a lot of open source developers in person, and just identify them by name, communication and the code. However, the ones I happened to talk with on broader topics, usually happen to be older than 20. Also, I'm not sure how, and, most importantly, why I would question about their responsibilities though...

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#222
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not evolving? Maybe you're just not learning enough to know what the newest evolutions are. Are you one of the people who see new technology as pointless fashion?

Care to elaborate on what some of these "newest evolutions" are? I studied cs as an undergrad and in grad school and have worked professionally as a software developer for ten years, so I feel qualified to weigh in on this. I can count on one hand the core principles someone really needs to understand to be a great developer and valuable employee and few of those have changed in my career. Once you know those things,…

One of the very best developers I know rarely if ever did anything outside work hours.

BUT I have known some of the best developers there are, and the guy I mention above is the definite exception to the rule.

And I never said that there are no great developers who only work during office hours - there are - but the strongest indicators of how good a developer is are their level of interest and this is typically expressed outside of working hours.

And I also did not ever say that the only people to employ are obsessives.

And I fully accept that as a recruiter I will routinely make judgements calls that are wrong - but I have to have some approach to finding great people. How do you suggest your over 40 family man genius programmer could be identified as a genius programmer by someone who does not know him? Recruiting is far from perfect - it is about people and is not a science, but having said that, there must be some method to choosing people.

As a recruiter I represent the interests of the employers - I'm just looking for what they are looking for. If I was building a development team then my criteria would be quite different - for the most part I am from the school of Joel Spolsky - employ people who are smart and get stuff done.

And let me make a point that I have tried to make when I participate in these discussions - what EXACTLY is a "great developer"? In hard, definable, quantifiable terms? Everyone talks about finding them, identifying them, employing them, but it's very rare that people are able to quantify in any clearly definable terms what that means precisely. And if you don't know precisely what you are looking for then how do you know you found it?

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#223
post #218

I'm from China, where hard-working with a lot of overtime work is advocated in almost every internet-related company. Developer here do 996 the whole year in and out (for those of you who don't know the concept of 996, it means working from 9 in the morning to 9 in the late for 6 days a week in the office. But sadly, usually, a lot of the developers can only leave the office after 10 or 11 at night). Everyone knows t…

> Everyone knows this is bad for improvement and health, but company owners keep pushing everyone with salary and punishment, along with moral pressure, that only fighting this way, the company can survive in the big race in almost every industry area. Do they do any research to prove 996 is really effective? I have a hard time imagining how one could stay productive for long in such working mode. Sometimes I have so…

Because most of the Chinese company work in this pattern, I don't think a very pervasive research can be done and there is none I know that exists.

I think it works when you are copying things with lots of entry level developers at low cost, like most companies do. You know, they will find something that's working great in America and Europe and copy the whole thing very fast and launch new ones. This is how you guys have Google, we have Baidu; you have Uber, we have Didi; you have Periscope, we have over 100 mobile video live apps, etc.. But if you are inventing things, this won't work at all. I think this is one of the major reason why we lack of innovative products all these years.

This is a very common practice throughout the industry since about 2-3 years ago, and it's a very sad story every time I tell it.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or is it the other way around? Maybe it's the junior doctors that don't understand something that professional programmers _do_ about the limits of human endurance in skilled labor? There's no way those 100 hour weeks and 36 hours shifts don't lead to a measurable increase in errors. Given that in medicine, errors can cost lives, it's morally reprehensible that anyone allows this kind of thing to go on in medicine to…

Errors do increase with length of shift but they also increase when continuity of care is disrupted by shift change. When you look at patient outcomes it's a wash. This probably speaks more to awful shift change procedures than anything else but reducing the hours junior doctors are fostered for has not lead to any improvement for patients. http://healthland.time.com/2013/03/26/fewer-hours-for-doctor... I seem to rec…

Perhaps this is just convenient for employers. The real problem could be in shift change procedures but they aren't incentivised to fix this and lower shift times.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#225
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programming doesn't change much, frameworks might. Maybe for a college grad, they'll need to do that. But for someone who's been programming since they were young, additional time is not going to do much.

Reaching a point of competency even in playing Mozart on a violin takes a lot of time, and that doesn't change a bit for the next decade. Most people don't reach a level competency in their whole career, because they don't put in enough effort. Additionally have you spent some time without coding? Because I was upgraded to project manager I haven't actively coded in 4 months. I feel I'm significantly slower now. You…

Keyword, "much." Practice always helps but is not going to do much for a virtuoso.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#226
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to elaborate on what some of these "newest evolutions" are? I studied cs as an undergrad and in grad school and have worked professionally as a software developer for ten years, so I feel qualified to weigh in on this. I can count on one hand the core principles someone really needs to understand to be a great developer and valuable employee and few of those have changed in my career. Once you know those things,…

One of the very best developers I know rarely if ever did anything outside work hours. BUT I have known some of the best developers there are, and the guy I mention above is the definite exception to the rule. And I never said that there are no great developers who only work during office hours - there are - but the strongest indicators of how good a developer is are their level of interest and this is typically expr…

How do you suggest your over 40 family man genius programmer could be identified as a genius programmer by someone who does not know him?

As a recruiter you may not like this answer, but you'd have to ask him questions that require him to demonstrate ability rather than interest. You may not like that because it requires you to possess a lot of the skills the jobs you are looking to fill require, and there's not a shortcut to that. In my experience recruiters tend to be heavy on buzz words but light on actual understanding of programming itself. In an earlier response you made a statement that suggested that because you're in recruiting you don't need to have the same passion as a programmer would. If passion does in fact determine interest and ability, then you really should be studying programming outside working hours, as it will only help you as a tech recruiter to better understand the skills required to program.

There's nothing wrong with asking somebody about what they do outside work in and of itself, but its just a single data point and certainly not the most important one. I've interviewed and hired many, many programmers and my typical routine is to look at their resume to get a baseline of what their experience is. I have never, not once, looked for a specific language or framework. The reason is that experience tells me that if somebody is a great C++ programmer, they will be a great Java developer, a great Ruby developer, and so on. If they claim to have experience in C++, I may ask C++ specific questions, but I'm really only interested in knowing whether they really have an expert level understanding of object oriented programming principles and use good design practices. On the other hand if somebody has a cursory amount of experience in ten different frameworks but are only mediocre in each, they will be mediocre at every task until they gain a deep understanding of the fundamentals.

And let me make a point that I have tried to make when I participate in these discussions - what EXACTLY is a "great developer"? In hard, definable, quantifiable terms?

That's like asking "what makes a great auto mechanic?" It's some combination of experience and a fundamental understanding of the inner-workings of an automobile. Hearing a strange noise coming from the engine on your car? Drawing on his experience, a great mechanic can better diagnose and fix it than a bad one. Is there a score to measure that skill? No. You'd have to be an experienced mechanic yourself and observe a mechanic working in order to make that determination. It's not quantifiable. If it were, you'd be out of a job.

I don't know anything about your experience, so I'll certainly not make assumptions about you specifically, but in my experience most recruiters don't have any experience at all in programming. They haven't built a single Rails app, made a commit on Github, and couldn't explain what object relational mapping is. What a curious thing then that they are attempting to measure a person's ability in those skills. That's why developers tend to resent recruiters. They spam people indiscriminately and often clearly demonstrate that they have no understanding of what they are asking. This shows a lack of respect for people's time. David Heinemeier Hansson, the inventor of Ruby on Rails, has famously tweeted on several occasions solicitations from recruiters asking for more years of experience in Ruby on Rails than the language has existed.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#227
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It takes 1~3 hours to stick a flag in the Internet about one topic. Having one flag stuck in the Internet beats zero flags, by a lot. I gave one rather mediocre talk at a regional tech conference with maybe ~100 attendees. The video is online. From that day forward inbound interest skyrocketed. I'm not talking about cold calls or LinkedIn requests, I'm talking about startup CTOs asking me out for coffee to chat abo…

Went through the effort to find the video, you are a very good presenter! did it come naturally or did you work on it? if so how?

I'm a little ashamed to say it came naturally (I feel like that's a cop-out answer but I don't have a better one).

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#228

"One could think that having kids or building a family is a choice. Even assuming this is true (it really isn't)" What? Of course it's a choice. And I'm sorry but, you can choose to leave programming at the office and be a perfectly good programmer but if you don't love it so much that you do it for fun as well then you are not going to be a master programmer. Just like a classical violinist who only practices a few…

The best software engineer I know doesn't hold a degree in the sciences, has a family with 4 children, and spends little to no time out of the office writing code. I don't know if I agree with your assertion. There is more to life than programming, and I think, if anything, you need some of that to become a great programmer.

Maybe the best programmer you know is not that great. I'm not disputing that you can have a life and be a good programmer. You must have a deeper level of commitment to be an outstanding programmer.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#229

"One could think that having kids or building a family is a choice. Even assuming this is true (it really isn't)" What? Of course it's a choice. And I'm sorry but, you can choose to leave programming at the office and be a perfectly good programmer but if you don't love it so much that you do it for fun as well then you are not going to be a master programmer. Just like a classical violinist who only practices a few…

8-9 hours a day, 5 days a week, is not a "few hours a day". You also might be surprised to find that most professional violinists don't practice more than 2-4 hours a day. Have a look around Google, you might be surprised.

Most programmers spend much of their day not actually programming. Being at the office for 8-9 hours is not the same thing.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is the jump from 1 to 2 bigger than the jump from 0 to 1?

The progression is not linear. It is exponential in terms of time.

There was a post here a few months(?) ago from a guy describing his life with his over ten kids. I'm pretty sure he doesn't spend x*2^10 hours per day on them ;)
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