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The Amorality of Self-Driving Cars

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61–70 of 72 posts

Re: The Amorality of Self-Driving Cars

#61
Self driving cars are robots period

When in doubt, follow the 3 laws for robots

First generation of the self driving vehicle should focus on safe driving in comparison to typical human drivers.

Like we have carpool/hov+ lanes we will start having autonomous lanes

I expect cargo trucks would switch to autonomous due mundane nature of the work and long driving hours

Re: The Amorality of Self-Driving Cars

#62

Self driving cars are robots period When in doubt, follow the 3 laws for robots First generation of the self driving vehicle should focus on safe driving in comparison to typical human drivers. Like we have carpool/hov+ lanes we will start having autonomous lanes I expect cargo trucks would switch to autonomous due mundane nature of the work and long driving hours

> When in doubt, follow the 3 laws for robots

Asimov's 3 Laws were a plot device, not a serious attempt to codify ethics. They were designed to fail for dramatic effect, and his stories were about them failing constantly, because they presented the apparent paradox of a perfectly rational being appearing to behave irrationally.

The only law Asimov's robots actually adhere to is the Law of Unintended Consequences - and I believe this is the actual lesson for autonomous car engineers. The more powerful an AI is, and the more complex it is, and the more likely it is to fail in ways that can't be predicted.

Re: The Amorality of Self-Driving Cars

#63
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supposing autonomous cars actually drive extremely safely and this results in them going 20 km/h under the speed limit. Are drivers going to be happy about the length of their commute increasing while regular car drivers (due to human recklessness) wiz by in the left lane at 130 km/h? I think you'd see a lot of human drivers get frustrated and turn off the AI.

We are already have fully automatic transportation machines: lifts. Are you happy with them? Do you want to use faster lifts at exchange of higher risk of injure or death? Do you want such faster lifts for others or for your family? IMHO, safety will win. Human life is much more valuable than wasted time. 50km/h is consider as safe speed for human driver in city. Computers are faster, so 60-70km/h will be safe for th…

The maximum safe speed on any street where there is the possibility of a kid hidden behind a parked car is 30 km/h, no matter human or robot driver.

A 30 kph collision with a pedestrian is almost always survivable. Anything faster isn't.

Robots can react faster, but cars still take time to stop. Most streets don't have more than a couple of feet of distance between moving traffic and parked cars. Reaction time is meaningless there.

Re: The Amorality of Self-Driving Cars

#64

I loved that this article focused on the peculiar de facto morality that has evolved around car culture. I quit driving about fifteen years ago, primarily get around on bicycle with the occasional train or Uber. You really need to get locked out of a car for a while to appreciate the weird sense of entitlement that drivers get. When the streets are full of cars and traffic is slow, well that’s just a fact of life, yo…

As a driver I often feel cyclists are reckless in how they ride in busy city streets. I have seen guys entering the path of a speeding car with no regard to his safety. Cyclists are not protected and I am acutely aware of the risks around them, and that makes me nervous. As a cyclist, I am afraid to take these risks, so I keep to sidewalks and parks.

Unfortunately, when I walk on sidewalks I often feel threatened by the cyclists. They ride too fast, too close to people. They feel entitled and reckless because they have wheels and us only legs to walk. Cyclists sharing a sidewalk are just as bad, or worse compared to drivers sharing a road with cyclists.

The solution would be dedicated cycling paths, but those are a rarity in my city and many of those that exist are just one meter width marked right on the sidewalk, reducing the space for walking. Sometimes the sidewalk is too narrow and people have to enter the cycling path in order to pass, and that's where a self entitled cyclist would run over you just to teach you not to step on his path. That's why I often walk with some anxiety, you never know who's on wheels and what they think they are entitled to do.

Re: The Amorality of Self-Driving Cars

#65
post #31

double getMaxSpeed(clear_road_ahead){ return speedAtWhichStoppingDistanceIs (clear_road_ahead/3); } enforceTopSpeed(getMaxSpeed(clear_road_ahead)); Engineering solved morality once again.

try { enforceTopSpeed(getMaxSpeed(clear_road_ahead)); } catch (CatastrophicBrakeFailureException ex) { // ??? }

turnOffEngine();

The engine turned off can be used very effectively as a brake.

Re: The Amorality of Self-Driving Cars

#66
post #64

I loved that this article focused on the peculiar de facto morality that has evolved around car culture. I quit driving about fifteen years ago, primarily get around on bicycle with the occasional train or Uber. You really need to get locked out of a car for a while to appreciate the weird sense of entitlement that drivers get. When the streets are full of cars and traffic is slow, well that’s just a fact of life, yo…

As a driver I often feel cyclists are reckless in how they ride in busy city streets. I have seen guys entering the path of a speeding car with no regard to his safety. Cyclists are not protected and I am acutely aware of the risks around them, and that makes me nervous. As a cyclist, I am afraid to take these risks, so I keep to sidewalks and parks. Unfortunately, when I walk on sidewalks I often feel threatened by…

You should be nervous while driving a car, you should be hyper-vigilant, checking for those which your two tonne mass of iron could easily kill. Driving a car should be like flying a commercial plane, it's far to much responsibility for the average person to have.

I'm nervous cycling my bicycle around London, surrounded by entitled drivers who complain about cyclists at every opportunity but who don't see the problem with texting while driving at speed?

The solution would be to completely rid of cars in cities, and to only allow those who are physically disabled, or those who are highly trained to drive. How long is your commute? 10 miles? that's a 30 minute cycle journey each way (I did that before a hit and run road rage driver stopped me from cycling).

Re: The Amorality of Self-Driving Cars

#67
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

try { enforceTopSpeed(getMaxSpeed(clear_road_ahead)); } catch (CatastrophicBrakeFailureException ex) { // ??? }

turnOffEngine(); The engine turned off can be used very effectively as a brake.

Should an electric engine also literally be able to 'reverse the polarity' as well?

Re: The Amorality of Self-Driving Cars

#68
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are already have fully automatic transportation machines: lifts. Are you happy with them? Do you want to use faster lifts at exchange of higher risk of injure or death? Do you want such faster lifts for others or for your family? IMHO, safety will win. Human life is much more valuable than wasted time. 50km/h is consider as safe speed for human driver in city. Computers are faster, so 60-70km/h will be safe for th…

The maximum safe speed on any street where there is the possibility of a kid hidden behind a parked car is 30 km/h, no matter human or robot driver. A 30 kph collision with a pedestrian is almost always survivable. Anything faster isn't. Robots can react faster, but cars still take time to stop. Most streets don't have more than a couple of feet of distance between moving traffic and parked cars. Reaction time is mea…

Robots can adjust speed of the car according to situation, especially on electric cars with recuperation of energy in brakes. Robots can use statistics or history of incidents to improve safety.

Robots can use also other things to improve safety, which cannot be used by human driver because (s)he is busy with driving, e.g. "laser" pointers of car direction of drive at road, like "mark my lane" light used by bicyclist; or directed audio/video/vibration alarms to warn of potential crash; or safety hands at front of car (like human hands), which will be released by computer to pickup child right before hit, or to to take hit from larger distance, slowly, or to change direction of car, or remove something from the road.

Humans cannot do that but robots can.

Re: The Amorality of Self-Driving Cars

#69
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

try { enforceTopSpeed(getMaxSpeed(clear_road_ahead)); } catch (CatastrophicBrakeFailureException ex) { // ??? }

turnOffEngine(); The engine turned off can be used very effectively as a brake.

Better catch EngineControlException. Oh, and TireShotBySniperException. Brake failure is just an example. There dozens of sensors and subsystems with innumerable combinations that can fail and put the vehicle in a state where some kind of collision is unavoidable. It will have to decide what to do.

Humans end up calling randomPanic() at some point, so maybe that's what the vehicle should do to avoid accusations that it "intentionally" harmed one party or another.

Re: The Amorality of Self-Driving Cars

#70
post #57

All this hang-wringing about the decision a driverless car will make when faced with the trolley problem is pointless. Driverless cars will result in a MASSIVE reduction in deaths of drivers and passengers, a MASSIVE reduction in harm to human pedestrians and non-drivers and to the environment. Driverless cars do not look at their cell phones. Driverless cars do not drive drunk. Driverless cars are not in a hurry, no…

Driverless cars will still err, though. They will err like software. The car won't be distracted, but if a software fault causes a google car to classify a certain make of car as invisible due to its lidar signature, or the glitch it causes in the algorithim, it will be far worse. Human error is significant, but software error probably can be more catastrophic because it can affect a huge subset of cars, much more th…

Driver error kills about 33K people a year in North America. That's how freaking bad this "software glitch" would need to be.
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