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How Technology Hijacks People’s Minds

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Re: How Technology Hijacks People’s Minds

#31

Post by Nav_Panel »

pessimizer wrote: post #27
imgabe wrote: post #11

The bit about choices reminds about the soda cup debacle from when Bloomberg proposed limiting the size of soda containers that some venues could sell. Everyone griped about how it limited their "freedom of choice", but nobody asked about why those particular sizes were the choices available in the first place. 7-11 and others decided that they could add a $0.05 more soda and charge $0.25 more and make more money. Pe…

> Meanwhile the choice of buying less was never presented as an option. What do you mean here? There were always multiple sizes of soda. Bloomberg was the one who was introducing the restriction, requiring someone who wanted more than a particular size to buy it in two separate cups. I must be parsing this incorrectly.

In NYC, most soda drinkers are stopping by their corner bodega/deli and buying a bottle, then walking/taking the subway somewhere. I feel like in this particular case, the goal was to force soda manufacturers to sell 16oz bottles rather than 20oz bottles, thus reducing the amount most people consume in a single purchase.

EDIT: I'm wrong, a reply below clarified the intent and also that bottles were exempt.

Back when I drank soda regularly, I often felt like 20oz was a little bit too much. A 12oz can felt about right, but in NYC it's a lot less convenient because you must finish it immediately upon opening.

Re: How Technology Hijacks People’s Minds

#32

Post by vicbrooker »

I can't see a way for this style of design to be feasible that doesn't rely on a subscription-based business model.

As long as users allow free + advertising generally be the way to for build a dominant tech company then I would assume anyone that tries to compete by not optimising for advertising (eg. reducing friction for users) will lose. Which is a damn shame.

Based on my limited knowledge of the history of news media, theres a cycle between free + advertising and paid + high quality. Intuitively it should apply to other verticals too, and I hope that, in reality, it does.

Re: How Technology Hijacks People’s Minds

#33

Post by forgottenpass »

Apparently google has an Ethicist.

Ctrl-F: Ad

Huh. Zero mentions of the thing that manipulates people by design.

I guess I don't blame him, because even with a blind spot to ads it would seem Google still doesn't give two shits about his input. He explicitly calls out a problem YouTube feature, which he certainly would have voiced internally before externally. And he doesn't work at Google anymore.

Google must want results from ethicists the way tobacco companies of old wanted results from in-house scientists.

Re: How Technology Hijacks People’s Minds

#34

Post by wslh »

nerdponx wrote: post #16
wslh wrote: post #2

I was really interested in the article until I read: "I spent the last three years as Google’s Design Ethicist...". In the article he is focusing at the application level but the issue is at the form factor level. One simple example: if you give to a child a Simon game app based on the original Simon game [1] he/she will probably end up switching to YouTube and watching stupid videos but if you give him/her the "limi…

Limited how?

Limited because your mobile phone is a generic computer while Simon is a specific game.

Re: How Technology Hijacks People’s Minds

#35

Post by rm_-rf_slash »

lars wrote: post #30

Wow, I'm glad this was posted. I think the way we use technology today will be looked back on the same way we look back at naive cigarette smoking in the 1950s. Modern app design isn't about creating things that are good for the user, but about creating want in the user. This is a problem. For example, there are several studies showing that using Facebook in general makes people less happy. User happiness just happen…

I think the more apt metaphor is lead in Roman pipes. They knew lead exposure made you crazy but they still used it in their pipes, on their plates - and it drove them mad.

After the planet has warmed beyond a point of no return, after antibiotic resistant bacteria make routine surgery a life-or-death decision, after we have squandered away our resources and used what little we had left to wage futile wars, we will find ourselves looking back at these Bernaysian psychological tricks of mass consumerism...and I wonder if we will use the same excuse then as we do today:

"But it was good for GDP!"

Re: How Technology Hijacks People’s Minds

#36

Post by kordless »

lars wrote: post #30

Wow, I'm glad this was posted. I think the way we use technology today will be looked back on the same way we look back at naive cigarette smoking in the 1950s. Modern app design isn't about creating things that are good for the user, but about creating want in the user. This is a problem. For example, there are several studies showing that using Facebook in general makes people less happy. User happiness just happen…

> User happiness just happens to not be be necessary for Facebook to be a successful business.

All that is necessary for Facebook to be successful is to make money for their shareholders. User happiness is only important if it impacts that particular line item.

Re: How Technology Hijacks People’s Minds

#37

Post by pessimizer »

Nav_Panel wrote: post #31
pessimizer wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile the choice of buying less was never presented as an option. What do you mean here? There were always multiple sizes of soda. Bloomberg was the one who was introducing the restriction, requiring someone who wanted more than a particular size to buy it in two separate cups. I must be parsing this incorrectly.

In NYC, most soda drinkers are stopping by their corner bodega/deli and buying a bottle, then walking/taking the subway somewhere. I feel like in this particular case, the goal was to force soda manufacturers to sell 16oz bottles rather than 20oz bottles, thus reducing the amount most people consume in a single purchase. EDIT: I'm wrong, a reply below clarified the intent and also that bottles were exempt. Back when…

That makes total sense for bottled soda, but for 7-11 sodas (which were what was mentioned in the comment I replied to), or fast food sodas (which were mentioned often at the time the law was proposed), there were always various sizes. They got cheaper by volume as they got larger, but 1) that's the same as every product, and 2) there's overhead in cup and the labor of filling it that stays fairly flat as the size increases.

Wasn't the Bloomberg law intentionally meant to corral people into drinking less soda by forcing people who wanted to drink more to carry two cups? The law, rather than the opposition to it seems like an explicit, intentional example of the OP.

edit: I don't drink soda, and I'm not a libertarian.

Re: How Technology Hijacks People’s Minds

#38

Post by jflatow »

lars wrote: post #30

Wow, I'm glad this was posted. I think the way we use technology today will be looked back on the same way we look back at naive cigarette smoking in the 1950s. Modern app design isn't about creating things that are good for the user, but about creating want in the user. This is a problem. For example, there are several studies showing that using Facebook in general makes people less happy. User happiness just happen…

I was about to post the same sentiment re: smoking.

Given that we see this type of behavior in all industries (not just tech), it seems to me it's actually a systemic problem. People / organizations are incentivized universally to optimize for their own selfish interest, because they do not incur the cost of their decisions on everyone else. In this case, designing your product to maximize e.g. addictiveness or time spent per user makes sense if the downside of that is paid by the user.

I think taxing wealth / property instead of (primarily) income actually solves this problem, but that's another story...

Re: How Technology Hijacks People’s Minds

#39

Post by swiley »

lars wrote: post #30

Wow, I'm glad this was posted. I think the way we use technology today will be looked back on the same way we look back at naive cigarette smoking in the 1950s. Modern app design isn't about creating things that are good for the user, but about creating want in the user. This is a problem. For example, there are several studies showing that using Facebook in general makes people less happy. User happiness just happen…

This is why I generally choose small open source Linux based tools over smartphone apps and the like. I just don't trust app and web developers because they have repeatedly worked against my interests.

Re: How Technology Hijacks People’s Minds

#40

Post by quadrangle »

lilcarlyung wrote: post #6

Sooo... These are the things that I need to do to build a successful app?

If by "successful" you mean unethical, manipulative, and popular, yes. I happen to define success as providing actual positive value to the world because those are my aims. If your goal is to be an asshole but not get recognized as the source of the assholery, then you now know how to succeed at doing that.
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