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Keep your identity small (2009)

paulgraham.com

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Re: Keep your identity small (2009)

#141

Post by tomhoward »

sysk wrote: post #90
athenot wrote: post #53

I don't think it's so much about identity as it is about (in)security. Regarding politics, I completely follow his argument: I don't identify with any party and like to think I'm evaluating each policy on its on merits and according to my personal beliefs. Which leads me to the other one. I happen to be Catholic and strongly believe in the mental and societal framework put forth by that theology. However, I'm more th…

Just a nitpick but atheism is not a faith, it's the absence of faith.

A big high-five to everyone in this subthread who decided to engage in a religious debate in response to this, of all articles!

Re: Keep your identity small (2009)

#142

Post by tomp »

eivarv wrote: post #139
tomp wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, then we're using two different definitions. I use agnostic for the one you describe as "atheist".

Agnosticism is the stance that what we are talking about is unknowable, as opposed to gnosticism. I think what you refer to as atheism seems closer to antitheism than anything else. The difference here is the same as the difference between "asocial" and "antisocial".

So is there any difference between agnosticism and atheism (as you use it)?

Re: Keep your identity small (2009)

#143

Post by darkarmani »

collyw wrote: post #114
sysk wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a nitpick but atheism is not a faith, it's the absence of faith.

Disagree. Atheists believe there is no god (without any conclusive evidence).

What is the name for people that believe there is no: santa clause, easter bunny, flying spaghetti monster, ... (without any conclusive proof)?

Re: Keep your identity small (2009)

#144

Post by eivarv »

tomp wrote: post #142
eivarv wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agnosticism is the stance that what we are talking about is unknowable, as opposed to gnosticism. I think what you refer to as atheism seems closer to antitheism than anything else. The difference here is the same as the difference between "asocial" and "antisocial".

So is there any difference between agnosticism and atheism (as you use it)?

Yes, but they're not different points on a scale that goes from religious to irreligious, if that is what you mean.

One can be an agnostic christian, for instance, in which case one would believe that it is unknown or unknowable whether the divine or supernatural exists (and believe in it still).

What I'm relating to the difference between "asocial" and "antisocial" is the difference between "atheist" and "antitheist".

Re: Keep your identity small (2009)

#145

Post by sysk »

enord wrote: post #91
sysk wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a nitpick but atheism is not a faith, it's the absence of faith.

Do you identify as atheist? Is the distinction important to you? Grouping different religious views together with atheism under the same category is useful when discussing people and their beliefs. Arguing the semantics of wether Atheism is a "belief" or "faith" (or some nicer, more certain-sounding term) is in my experience unfruitful and most often besides the point. /nitpick

I didn't mean to discuss, just to correct OP in case he was genuinely misinformed.

Re: Keep your identity small (2009)

#146

Post by tremon »

goldbrick wrote: post #134
tremon wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An atheist doesn't believe in the existence of god(s) Rather, an atheist believes in the non-existence of gods. We don't need a word like non-theist because we already have a word for it.

I have never known a self-proclaimed atheist to actually say as much. This is purely a line toted about by those who wish to paint "atheists" in a certain light ("they're just as irrational as we!").

Then again, do you know many Christians who explicitly signal their beliefs like that? I think they're much more likely to say "Jesus is the son of God" than "I believe Jesus is the son of God".

It's rather uncommon for any follower of faith to preface their beliefs with "I believe". If they preface them at all, they're much more likely to use "I know", or "$authority says".

Re: Keep your identity small (2009)

#147

Post by dllthomas »

tremon wrote: post #146
goldbrick wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never known a self-proclaimed atheist to actually say as much. This is purely a line toted about by those who wish to paint "atheists" in a certain light ("they're just as irrational as we!").

Then again, do you know many Christians who explicitly signal their beliefs like that? I think they're much more likely to say "Jesus is the son of God" than "I believe Jesus is the son of God". It's rather uncommon for any follower of faith to preface their beliefs with "I believe". If they preface them at all, they're much more likely to use "I know", or "$authority says".

> Then again, do you know many Christians who explicitly signal their beliefs like that?

All of them that recite the Nicene Creed or some derivative...

Re: Keep your identity small (2009)

#148

Post by Nadya »

tremon wrote: post #122
kecks wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An atheist doesn't believe in the existence of god(s); a theist is the opposite and believes in the existence of god(s). The difference lies in lack of faith v. faith. An agnostic believes it's not possible to be sure whether one or more gods exist. Combinations are possibly; an agnostic theist believes in the existence of gods, but also thinks it's impossible to be sure. There are also apathetic agnostics; they don'…

An atheist doesn't believe in the existence of god(s) Rather, an atheist believes in the non-existence of gods. We don't need a word like non-theist because we already have a word for it.

>Rather, an atheist believes in the non-existence of gods. We don't need a word like non-theist because we already have a word for it.

No. That would be a gnostic atheist. One who claims to know and doesn't believe.

Nearly every single atheist I know, and it is generally a safe assumption to make [0], is an agnostic atheist. One who doesn't believe but claims to not know for sure.

If you ask me if gnomes exist, I will tell you I am a gnostic atheist. I am certain in my knowledge that gnomes do not exist, and thus I have no reason to believe in them. If you ask me if god(s) exists, I will tell you I am an agnostic atheist. I am uncertain in my knowledge that a god does or does not exist, but I have no reason to believe that one does.

And yes - there can be agnostic theists too! Although they are the minority as most theists claim to "know" and that knowledge is why they believe. So theists are assumed to be gnostic theists unless they state otherwise. My grandmother is the only person I've ever known to claim to be an agnostic theist. She claims to not know but finds comfort in believing. She doesn't follow any major world religion and her god is not a god of any scripture.

[0] It's the vast majority and so "agnostic" is usually superfluous and unnecessary in conversation. I only ever see it brought up when a theist tries to claim the Atheist is really just a Theist who "believes in some opposite thing". Then the difference has to be pointed out like I've done in this post.

Re: Keep your identity small (2009)

#149

Post by tremon »

dllthomas wrote: post #147
tremon wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then again, do you know many Christians who explicitly signal their beliefs like that? I think they're much more likely to say "Jesus is the son of God" than "I believe Jesus is the son of God". It's rather uncommon for any follower of faith to preface their beliefs with "I believe". If they preface them at all, they're much more likely to use "I know", or "$authority says".

> Then again, do you know many Christians who explicitly signal their beliefs like that? All of them that recite the Nicene Creed or some derivative...

Interesting. I'd never heard of it.

Re: Keep your identity small (2009)

#150

Post by goldbrick »

tremon wrote: post #146
goldbrick wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never known a self-proclaimed atheist to actually say as much. This is purely a line toted about by those who wish to paint "atheists" in a certain light ("they're just as irrational as we!").

Then again, do you know many Christians who explicitly signal their beliefs like that? I think they're much more likely to say "Jesus is the son of God" than "I believe Jesus is the son of God". It's rather uncommon for any follower of faith to preface their beliefs with "I believe". If they preface them at all, they're much more likely to use "I know", or "$authority says".

Doesn't matter.

When given the choice between

"I believe that God doesn't exist"

and

"I don't believe that God exists"

>99% of atheists would choose the latter as better representing their personal stance on the matter. Further, almost all would additionally agree that if there were evidence for God's existence, they would believe.

The concept of "faith" is not one that resonates with atheists. Christians however, love to pretend that disbelieving requires just as much magical thinking as believing, and this is a classic example.

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