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Keep your identity small (2009)

paulgraham.com

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Re: Keep your identity small (2009)

#131

Post by shopkins »

collyw wrote: post #116
rcxdude wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on your precise definition. Most atheists consider atheism the lack of belief in a god, as opposed to the belief that there is no god. The distinction is important.

Most people I know who claim to be atheists seem to believe there is not god, despite not being able to prove it. Agnostics seem to be the most honest ones....

That's a very theistic way to frame atheism. Theism requires active belief in prescribed dogma, whereas atheism can include both rejection of said dogma or simply not subscribing to religious ideas.

For example, many people are vegetarian for one subjective reason or another. Just because I'm not vegetarian doesn't mean I believe being vegetarian is wrong or isn't a thing -- it just means I like eating meat and don't have the same reasons as vegetarians to subscribe to vegetarianism. And I don't think about vegetarianism, like how some atheists don't think about god; this stands in contrast with those who subscribe to religion, which requires active belief / prayer / practice / absorption of certain ideals into your identity.

Re: Keep your identity small (2009)

#132

Post by goldbrick »

ikeboy wrote: post #128
ixtli wrote: post #74

> any mention of religion on an online forum degenerates into a religious argument. Why? Why does this happen with religion and not with Javascript Then later > the question of the relative merits of programming languages often degenerates into a religious war, because so many programmers identify as X programmers or Y programmers. Also as another poster said, this works because he's been able to go his entire life c…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acting_white Arguably some black people label themselves.

And the finger pointing begins.

Re: Keep your identity small (2009)

#133

Post by goldbrick »

collyw wrote: post #114
sysk wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a nitpick but atheism is not a faith, it's the absence of faith.

Disagree. Atheists believe there is no god (without any conclusive evidence).

Most people who call themselves atheists disagree with you. You should respect others more.

Re: Keep your identity small (2009)

#134

Post by goldbrick »

tremon wrote: post #122
kecks wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An atheist doesn't believe in the existence of god(s); a theist is the opposite and believes in the existence of god(s). The difference lies in lack of faith v. faith. An agnostic believes it's not possible to be sure whether one or more gods exist. Combinations are possibly; an agnostic theist believes in the existence of gods, but also thinks it's impossible to be sure. There are also apathetic agnostics; they don'…

An atheist doesn't believe in the existence of god(s) Rather, an atheist believes in the non-existence of gods. We don't need a word like non-theist because we already have a word for it.

I have never known a self-proclaimed atheist to actually say as much. This is purely a line toted about by those who wish to paint "atheists" in a certain light ("they're just as irrational as we!").

Re: Keep your identity small (2009)

#135

Post by tomp »

eivarv wrote: post #109
tomp wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Atheism is faith just like any other; belief that no god exists is just as substantiated (i.e. not at all) and provable (i.e. not at all) as the belief that particular god(s) exist.

What sysk is saying that atheism is not the belief that no god exists, but rather the lack of a belief in a god. It's also not as if any two unsubstantiated and unprovable positions are just as likely to be true; see Russell's teapot[1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

Ok, then we're using two different definitions. I use agnostic for the one you describe as "atheist".

Re: Keep your identity small (2009)

#136

Post by aws_ls »

fao_ wrote: post #60

> Why does this happen with religion and not with Javascript or baking or other topics people talk about on forums? He must not spend a lot of time on Slashdot, or Hacker News, for that matter.

I am seeing this point being repeatedly pointed out on this page (i.e. his first mention of Javascript as non-controversial as baking, and then later on in the essay Programming lang X vs Y) .

Remember it was 2009. Surely Chrome had come out by then a few years, with the much improved JS engine, but IE still had the dominant market share. And so I doubt there were so many JS frameworks as today. Surely there was jquery and also things like GWT already, and I am sure quite some other frameworks.

But the full impact of a fast JS execution engine, had still not played out, I guess. Today, if PG writes the essay, he would most definitely not include Javascript there.

Also if I look at the context of what he is trying to say, that mention is not important. Its about wearing labels or not. Or in other words about being open to think, because of not tying ourselves down with published identities.

Re: Keep your identity small (2009)

#137

Post by shanusmagnus »

abtinf wrote: post #88
ixtli wrote: post #74

> any mention of religion on an online forum degenerates into a religious argument. Why? Why does this happen with religion and not with Javascript Then later > the question of the relative merits of programming languages often degenerates into a religious war, because so many programmers identify as X programmers or Y programmers. Also as another poster said, this works because he's been able to go his entire life c…

If I attack you because your identity conflicts with my identity, say over differing skin color, then it demonstrates his original point: the label I've given myself is making me behave dumb/stupid/evil. My action creates no obligation on your part to adopt the identity I've assigned to you. Your station in life has no impact on whether you will accept the label; you are a human capable of reason and you have free wi…

I had a friend once who would insult people and then when they got angry or hurt he would say: I don't control your feelings, you control your feelings. Technically true, perhaps, depending on certain philosophically assumptions. But practically absurd. And certainly a terrible mental model about how humans work in situ.

Re: Keep your identity small (2009)

#138

Post by jabl »

collyw wrote: post #116
rcxdude wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on your precise definition. Most atheists consider atheism the lack of belief in a god, as opposed to the belief that there is no god. The distinction is important.

Most people I know who claim to be atheists seem to believe there is not god, despite not being able to prove it. Agnostics seem to be the most honest ones....

That's interesting. I know plenty of people who label themselves as atheists, but AFAICT not a single one of them take the position of "belief in god not existing".

Re: Keep your identity small (2009)

#139

Post by eivarv »

tomp wrote: post #135
eivarv wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What sysk is saying that atheism is not the belief that no god exists, but rather the lack of a belief in a god. It's also not as if any two unsubstantiated and unprovable positions are just as likely to be true; see Russell's teapot[1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

Ok, then we're using two different definitions. I use agnostic for the one you describe as "atheist".

Agnosticism is the stance that what we are talking about is unknowable, as opposed to gnosticism.

I think what you refer to as atheism seems closer to antitheism than anything else. The difference here is the same as the difference between "asocial" and "antisocial".

Re: Keep your identity small (2009)

#140

Post by tomhoward »

DavidWanjiru wrote: post #105
ixtli wrote: post #74

> any mention of religion on an online forum degenerates into a religious argument. Why? Why does this happen with religion and not with Javascript Then later > the question of the relative merits of programming languages often degenerates into a religious war, because so many programmers identify as X programmers or Y programmers. Also as another poster said, this works because he's been able to go his entire life c…

"Keep" implies agency and control. Keep it simple. Keep me posted. Keep your identity small. The entire article is premised on the existence of this agency and control. If it is lacking, then I would argue that that's not the type of situation he is speaking to.

Such an obvious point shouln't have to be made, but sadly it often does these days, so thanks for making it so eloquently.
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