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The brain is not a computer

aeon.co

111–120 of 166 posts

Re: The brain is not a computer

#111

My comments from yesterday's thread in /r/Neuropsychology: While I understand the frustration with the whole Kurzweil camp, this article reads like it was written by an angry high schooler. It also throws the baby out with the bathwater, in that there are clearly valuable analogies to be drawn from computing, as others have mentioned in this thread. My two biggest disagreements: - "Your brain does not process informa…

> Where then does the crude drawing come from

Thank you for making this point. I am completely unable to follow the author's logic

Re: The brain is not a computer

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not even pedantic, it's just wrong. He's ignoring years of neuroscience. We know that the brain uses signals, and that these signals are composed of codes. We know that to interpret the world, certain information processing must take place. We are learning more about the exact nature of this processing, more about how neurons and even other fundamentals of the body code information and contribute to processing (…

Got a few citations on that? Neurons react to stimuli, that's certainly well-established. But codes?

Not necessarily established, but you'll find some hypotheses here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_coding

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_decoding

Re: The brain is not a computer

#113

I find it somewhat amusing that all of the top comments on a story about how the human brain is not a computer seek to analogize the computer to the brain in order to prove that the brain is in fact a computer, while actual experts on the brain have gone into detail on exactly why that isn't the case. Dunning-Kruger much?

I'm just reminded of Kuhn: "To the extent that two scientific schools disagree about what is a problem and what a solution, they will inevitably talk through each other when debating the relative merits of their respective paradigms. ...Both are looking at the world, and what they look at has not changed. But in some areas they see different things, and they see them in different relations one to the other. That is why a law that cannot even be demonstrated to one group of scientists may occasionally seem intuitively obvious to another."

Re: The brain is not a computer

#114

I find it somewhat amusing that all of the top comments on a story about how the human brain is not a computer seek to analogize the computer to the brain in order to prove that the brain is in fact a computer, while actual experts on the brain have gone into detail on exactly why that isn't the case. Dunning-Kruger much?

Do you have sources on this? Because from what I've learned in my cognitive psychology / neuroscience classes and talks, the brain works very much like a processing machine. Incredibly different than the electronic deterministic ones we use day to day, but it's still a processing machine.

Re: The brain is not a computer

#115
tl;dr -- This article is a barefaced example of rank ignorance. Author/editors have no idea what "information" and "algorithm" means. Instead, they seem to be dealing with those concepts as ignorant rubes.

A baby’s vision is blurry, but it pays special attention to faces

The latter phrase reflects a well established and important developmental fact. I'm very curious about the first phrase. Is this also an established fact in the science of human development? On the face of it, it seems like an extraordinary piece of research if that's true. One cannot, of course, simply ask a baby if their vision is blurry. Their visual acuity needs to be inferred, and some cleverness would be required to do this reliably and accurately.

Anyone know which study this refers to? (Or is this an example of why this article is pretty darn fluffy?)

EDIT: Arrgh! This article is ignorant fluff!

But here is what we are not born with: information, data, rules, software, knowledge, lexicons, representations, algorithms, programs, models, memories, images, processors, subroutines, encoders, decoders, symbols, or buffers – design elements that allow digital computers to behave somewhat intelligently. Not only are we not born with such things, we also don’t develop them – ever.

The brain can contain information. That's simply an evident fact. Does the author understand what information means?

The human nervous system also embodies algorithms. That's also a fact established by neuro-biology. The visual system is full of algorithms. I think the author doesn't understand what these words mean. All of the other words seem to be thrown in there to evoke images of machine parts that don't look like people parts. It's exactly the cargo-cult misunderstanding of the underlying principles, in mistaken deference to resemblances.

Also, anyone who's delved into Rubik's Cube solving knows that we humans can develop and embody algorithms. (The scene plays fast and loose with the term, but they do use algorithms in a mathematical sense.) This author loses a whole lot of academic credibility for writing this, and the editors of this website do as well for publishing this. This is just rank ignorance on the level of publishing a perpetual motion machine article. It's 2016. If you are publishing a factual article of interest to intellectuals, and you don't understand what information or an algorithm is, you have to more business writing, editing, and publishing such an article than if you had no idea of what the periodic table means.

Misleading headlines notwithstanding, no one really has the slightest idea how the brain changes after we have learned to sing a song or recite a poem. But neither the song nor the poem has been ‘stored’ in it. The brain has simply changed in an orderly way that now allows us to sing the song or recite the poem under certain conditions. When called on to perform, neither the song nor the poem is in any sense ‘retrieved’ from anywhere in the brain, any more than my finger movements are ‘retrieved’ when I tap my finger on my desk. We simply sing or recite – no retrieval necessary.

As a traditional musician who can play several hundred melodies from memory, I can say this is complete BS. He's simply stupid playing games with terminology. What I know from my experience and that of many fellow musicians, is that we do have to retrieve melodies. In fact, sometimes we have to take a few minutes to make sure we have all parts of the melody retrieved. You can go out to pubs in SF and see traditional musicians sit there and do this. Sometimes the right cue needs to occur for the complete retrieval to happen. Some musicians have certain melodies they can only remember after they remember the name.

Re: The brain is not a computer

#116
among all the other well articulated complaints in the comments here I have to ask a question...

is the result of this article the conclusion that computers are just boring, uncreative, overly logical brains? Who woulda thunk?

Re: The brain is not a computer

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people forget that there's more than one computer architecture. A computer doesn't even have to be digital.

But that's expanding the definition to "Arbitrary processing architecture we haven't even invented yet which really could simulate a human brain, if only we knew what it was and how to build it - which we don't, but that's just an engineering problem."

It's definitely not arbitrary. We have solid mathematical definitions of computing that are not tied to any particular implementation.

Saying "the brain is not a computer" is a shorthand for "the brain is not Turing equivalent".

Now, that could be true. But if it is, it would be the first time anybody has found a physical system in our universe that can't be simulated by a Turing machine. It seems like quite a stretch.

Re: The brain is not a computer

#118
post #7

This article falls somewhere between a strawman argument and a deliberate misrepresentation of scientific understanding. > " But here is what we are not born with: information, data, rules, software, knowledge, lexicons, representations, algorithms, programs, models, memories, images, processors, subroutines, encoders, decoders, symbols, or buffers " We are born with most (if not) all of these things, and we develop…

To add to the fallacy that to think that simply because computations by common computers are done with a bits-and-bytes approach hardware-wise and processes in the brain are not that computers wouldn't be able to express computation that comes very close to processes in the brain:

This is exactly a mapping from one computational calculus (e.g. "brain calculus") to another (e.g. binary logic) with a compiler. While it still might be that the physical processes governing brain functioning somehow elude computational description with digital logic (i.e. such a compiler can not exist. Not sure how this could be the case given the notions of universality by way of Turing machines attached to that), surely this would mean we'd have a new class of computational power on our hands.

And to say that brains are capable of more than Turing-complete (ignoring memory constraints) computation seems hard to believe (see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_physics). Now how to factor true randomness (if it exists in our universe) into this I don't know, and maybe it doesn't even play a role...

Re: The brain is not a computer

#119
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed it does. If not, how then can you, "recall" the names of your family upon seeing their faces? You've stored a representation of each face, you've stored their names, and you retrieve that information to maintain the relationship.

pattern recognition. you see a face, and the visual stimulus refires the same set of neurons, which then fire additional neurons, creating a chain that eventually fires off the set that is connected with the sound of that face. This is a pattern of neuron activity, and its not the same as retrieval.

You're just describing a different way to physically distribute the bits. From a mathematical standpoint it's still very clear that information-theoretic bits are going in and coming back out again.

Or to put it another way, if you really think that isn't computing, you need to argue that this new piece of hardware also isn't computing:

https://cloudplatform.googleblog.com/2016/05/Google-supercha...

Re: The brain is not a computer

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was studying Neural Networks in grad school (advisor was statistician from Bell Labs) at Rutgers and took a bunch of classes with Jerry, so I had these debates on a daily basis. Unless you summarize Chemero's critique, though, I can't really respond to it. Fodor didn't claim that connectionist models couldn't encode symbolic manipulation, just that the pertinent activity from the perspective of "thought" is symboli…

I posted a link and very brief summary elsewhere here. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11730489 He discusses Fodor on p. 26 as part of a critique of conceptual/a priori (Hegelian) arguments.

This caused me some indigestion.

I don't consider myself either for or against Fodor's argument but I think the summary does great injustice to his arguments.

Fodor does claim that, for what he describes as language, systematicity and compositionality are essential features. However, the "evidence" he cites isn't from a study. It is primarily from facts about language.

To use one of his favorite examples, take these sentences:

    The cat ate the rat.
    The rat ate the cat.
If you understand sentence 1, you can understand sentence 2, and furthermore, the words "cat", "ate" and "rat" mean the same thing.

He takes those facts to be uncontroversial, and he says that that is what he means by systematicity and compositionality.

This "ability comes in clusters" bit is very confusing, and I am not sure what he means by it.

Fodor doesn't care that connectionists don't have good models for symbolic manipulation. He says that connectionists models are only good in so far as they reduce to symbolic manipulation because symbolic manipulation are the only models we have that demonstrate compositionality and systematicity.

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