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Open Whisper Systems Partners with Google on End-To-end Encryption for Allo

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Re: Open Whisper Systems Partners with Google on End-To-end Encryption for Allo

#101

Post by jsnell »

tptacek wrote: post #90
jsnell wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Impossible" is a tough standard to meet. But given how different idiomatic Java code and idiomatic Rust code are, it does seem kind of unlikely. I'd expect nothing at all would carry over from one codebase to the other even if you were making as straight a port as possible. Or alternatively one program would look like total garbage, like someone mechanically translating Lisp to C. And indeed, with a quick browse thr…

The very code you linked to settles this: // Based on libsignal-protocol-java by Open Whisper Systems

That's exactly why I wrote "anything in the code itself". Yes, they made a mass commit adding that attribution to every file 9 days ago to conclude a messy lawsuit. That doesn't make the two codebases themselves appear any more related in isolation.

If there's GPL violation and code was copied, there should be some traces of that. Is it truly so unreasonable to ask what those traces were?

Re: Open Whisper Systems Partners with Google on End-To-end Encryption for Allo

#102

Post by tptacek »

cm3 wrote: post #98
tptacek wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since nobody has provided any evidence that OWS ever suggested that using their documentation was improper, you might just as well suggest Moxie use this "incident" as an opportunity to announce that he's stopped beating his wife.

I don't understand the cultural reference and I'll assume it's irrelevant, but the Oracle vs Google saga made me very very cautious when it comes to clean room reimplementations of public bits, and if I were to earn money with such a library, I'm afraid I'd need more than Moxie's tweet.

Seriously? Oracle? Maybe this cultural reference will be clearer:

https://frinkiac.com/gif/S07E18/362795/366966/IExvb2sgb3V0IE...

This is FUD.

Re: Open Whisper Systems Partners with Google on End-To-end Encryption for Allo

#103

Post by tptacek »

jsnell wrote: post #101
tptacek wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The very code you linked to settles this: // Based on libsignal-protocol-java by Open Whisper Systems

That's exactly why I wrote "anything in the code itself". Yes, they made a mass commit adding that attribution to every file 9 days ago to conclude a messy lawsuit. That doesn't make the two codebases themselves appear any more related in isolation. If there's GPL violation and code was copied, there should be some traces of that. Is it truly so unreasonable to ask what those traces were?

"To conclude a messy lawsuit"? They're the ones who filed the lawsuit!

Re: Open Whisper Systems Partners with Google on End-To-end Encryption for Allo

#104

Post by anc84 »

ThatGeoGuy wrote: post #39
zanny wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matrix uses the same encryption protocol but is also federated, which is nice.

And interesting enough, Matrix faces a different problem than Signal: It doesn't have many good clients at all (at least, last I had checked a few months back). I will agree it would be very nice if Matrix was the dominant messaging protocol that everyone needed to speak with their friends. However, that's not feasible until somebody makes an easy-to-use, beautiful Android and iOS client that doesn't require the user…

Vector and recently Tensor are pretty awesome.

Re: Open Whisper Systems Partners with Google on End-To-end Encryption for Allo

#106

Post by cm3 »

tptacek wrote: post #102
cm3 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand the cultural reference and I'll assume it's irrelevant, but the Oracle vs Google saga made me very very cautious when it comes to clean room reimplementations of public bits, and if I were to earn money with such a library, I'm afraid I'd need more than Moxie's tweet.

Seriously? Oracle? Maybe this cultural reference will be clearer: https://frinkiac.com/gif/S07E18/362795/366966/IExvb2sgb3V0IE... This is FUD.

This cultural reference I get even less than the first one, but I'll just ignore the references.

I'm not sure if you're missing the context. This branch of the thread forked off me asking the same thing as another poster, namely the likelihood of being bothered by IP or Copyright claims for a real, proper clean room implementation of the protocol, zero code copied, assuming there is sufficient documentation available.

Oracle vs Google is relevant, but it seems we're talking past each other and maybe I'm missing a point you're making.

Re: Open Whisper Systems Partners with Google on End-To-end Encryption for Allo

#107

Post by tptacek »

cm3 wrote: post #106
tptacek wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? Oracle? Maybe this cultural reference will be clearer: https://frinkiac.com/gif/S07E18/362795/366966/IExvb2sgb3V0IE... This is FUD.

This cultural reference I get even less than the first one, but I'll just ignore the references. I'm not sure if you're missing the context. This branch of the thread forked off me asking the same thing as another poster, namely the likelihood of being bothered by IP or Copyright claims for a real, proper clean room implementation of the protocol, zero code copied, assuming there is sufficient documentation available…

Sorry, I'm just eager to deploy Frinkiac.

I simply disagree with you that Moxie Marlinspike is in any way accountable for what Oracle does with Java.

I also take exception to the argument that Open Whisper Systems needs to do something to mitigate your false impression that they've disallowed developers from using their documentation. They have not, nobody has credibly claimed otherwise, even the Wire people, and so I don't think it's proper to suggest that OWS take this "opportunity" to address a fictitious concern.

Re: Open Whisper Systems Partners with Google on End-To-end Encryption for Allo

#108

Post by mike_hearn »

ikeboy wrote: post #87
mike_hearn wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you've thought this through. If one side enabled this "use E2E encryption for everything" feature, then the other side would presumably no longer have access to any of the smart assistant features. And it would not be obvious why. Additionally, it would be hard to explain why you'd ever want to enable such a feature which means nobody would do it. I suspect you want default E2E encryption for political…

>If one side enabled this "use E2E encryption for everything" feature That's not what I'm suggesting. I want E2E to be separate from the "delete chats when I'm finished" feature. Wanting an E2E chat that stays on my device when I'm done should be fine. I'm fine with having E2E require a separate mode, but that shouldn't be bundled with the incognito feature of not remembering history.

I see. In that case, yes it'd make sense to have such a feature, probably implemented as an archive button in the incognito window (with a warning that archiving such a chat makes it non-private).

Re: Open Whisper Systems Partners with Google on End-To-end Encryption for Allo

#109

Post by ikeboy »

mike_hearn wrote: post #108
ikeboy wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If one side enabled this "use E2E encryption for everything" feature That's not what I'm suggesting. I want E2E to be separate from the "delete chats when I'm finished" feature. Wanting an E2E chat that stays on my device when I'm done should be fine. I'm fine with having E2E require a separate mode, but that shouldn't be bundled with the incognito feature of not remembering history.

I see. In that case, yes it'd make sense to have such a feature, probably implemented as an archive button in the incognito window (with a warning that archiving such a chat makes it non-private).

Are you assuming that all storage ends up on Google's servers (because that's what hangouts does, maybe)?

Why can't it store E2E chats locally and never upload to google, or even encrypt with a passphrase like Chrome sync does?

Re: Open Whisper Systems Partners with Google on End-To-end Encryption for Allo

#110

Post by ryukafalz »

ThatGeoGuy wrote: post #39
zanny wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matrix uses the same encryption protocol but is also federated, which is nice.

And interesting enough, Matrix faces a different problem than Signal: It doesn't have many good clients at all (at least, last I had checked a few months back). I will agree it would be very nice if Matrix was the dominant messaging protocol that everyone needed to speak with their friends. However, that's not feasible until somebody makes an easy-to-use, beautiful Android and iOS client that doesn't require the user…

Vector is now out on both Android[1] and iOS[2], and the web version of Vector has improved significantly.

It doesn't have end to end encryption support yet, but they're working on it.

1: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=im.vector.alph... 2: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/vector.im/id1083446067

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