Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

vox.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 267 posts

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#181

Post by bluetidepro »

lisper wrote: post #76
Zelphyr wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except, as Bruce Schneier notes, there were zero 9-11 level attacks on the US prior to 9-11 as well. 9-11 was a statistical fluke.

Not quite a statistical fluke. The 9-11 hijackers took advantage of the fact that they could count on the passengers and crew to cooperate because they would assume that this hijacking was like all the others before and cooperation provided the best odds of survival. But the 9-11 hijackers defected (in the sense of the prisoner's dilemma). As a result, no one will ever cooperate with a hijacker again, and as a result…

> "no remotely sane person". Sane probably isn't the right word. I'd argue the hijackers were indeed sane by definition. They were more so misguided than insane.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#182

Post by schoen »

avn2109 wrote: post #28
rhino369 wrote: post #4

It's easy to say that TSA sucks (it does), but it's hard to propose a workable alternative. Well alternative 1, stop making us take off our shoes and taking out our laptops, its clear from pre-check that it's not really necessary. You need some security. That was clear before 9-11. Airports had security and it was pretty similar to how TSA does it right now. You put your bags on an Xray machine, show your ID, and wal…

All those problems you mention are real, but they're not the main problem. The real problem with the TSA is that it's explicitly unconstitutional, since the 4th amendment explicitly prohibits search and seizure without a warrant. "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon…

> In Davis and its progeny, we have established a general reasonableness test for airport screenings. “An airport screening search is reasonable if: (1) it is no more extensive or intensive than necessary, in light of current technology, to detect weapons or explosives; (2) it is confined in good faith to that purpose; and (3) passengers may avoid the search by electing not to fly.” Torbet, 298 F.3d at 1089 (citation omitted); see also Davis, 482 F.2d at 913; Pulido-Baquerizo, 800 F.2d at 901. (U.S. v. Marquez, 9th Cir. 2005)

You definitely don't have to agree with the correctness of this line of cases; you should just be aware that the courts have looked at the question and have a theory they've been pursuing for about four decades about why totally suspicionless searches are "reasonable" and hence constitutional in this context. A tricky thing about the fourth amendment text is that it talks about what the requirements are to get a warrant, but doesn't explicitly say whether searches without a warrant are exactly the same as "unreasonable" searches. Courts have interpreted this for a long time to suggest that some kinds of searches without a warrant are nonetheless "reasonable", although Davis was a pretty enormous expansion; I wouldn't be surprised if searches pursuant to it are an absolute majority of all the searches performed by the government!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United...

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#183

Post by geophile »

a3n wrote: post #172
geophile wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was flying with my wife, and we did a controlled experiment, since the Pre line and regular line both looked daunting. We got on different lines at the same time. We both took about 45 minutes to get through, but the Pre line was actually a bit slower.

But the person in the Pre line got to keep their shoes on!

I also get to keep my shoes on while I drive.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#184

Post by Mendenhall »

logfromblammo wrote: post #177
Mendenhall wrote: post #23

In my personal experience what slows it all down the most is the actual people flying. Every time I fly I see countless people wearing tons of metal/jewelry/belts/whatever that they have to take off, often not till they are told to do so, the laptap is tucked far away until last moment. They still carry all sorts of lotions and liquids on for some unknown reason. When they then exit the scan they clog up the line by…

Don't blame the victims. You might as well say it's their fault because they didn't memorize the Gettysburg Address prior to arriving at the airport. What does reciting the Gettysburg Address have to do with airline security? About as much as making someone take out their nose and navel rings in the security line, and confiscating their hand lotion.

Oh I think the TSA is in inefficient and somewhat laughable, but I don't consider someone a victim who is not prepared to get on a plane and wastes everyone time. I consider that just rude. If someone gets their lotion confiscated, I consider them part of the problem that slows everyone down.

Edit to include I also think the TSA is making things slower on "purpose" but that's a whole other topic.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#185

Post by RijilV »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #102
cloudjacker wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I arrive at the airport in a Lyft. I walk up to the security checkpoint checkpoint, where I show the agent my phone. They see my boarding pass with the green checkmark and send me to the empty TSA Pre line. I walk through the metal detector with no adjustments to my attire. I am at the gate in 5 minutes. I like how trains basically let you show up last minute, and a 3 hour train ride actually means a 3 hour train rid…

Agree. My $100 Global Entry (includes TSA Pre) fee is my hedge against the American public's apathy towards the TSA.

Not for nothing, but Nexus is $50 and including Global Entry and TSA Pre. Also gets you into Canada, though I've not used that perk myself.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#186

Post by jasonjei »

saryant wrote: post #33
pmontra wrote: post #27

> Airports should kick out the TSA I'm not American and haven't been there for a long time so forgive my ignorance. TSA is an agency of DHS so I believed that its presence in airports was mandated by the government. Can airports really replace it with anybody they like? If this is the case, why they didn't do it before? Only because TSA is for free and airports have to pay private security companies?

Airports can replace the TSA with private contracts. SFO farmed security out to a company called Covenant. They still have to follow TSA policies and aren't necessarily an improvement from a passenger standpoint. I.e., you're still getting yelled at by otherwise-unemployable nitwits on a power trip.

I've actually found the SFO private contractors to be fantastic. I once left my laptop at the security scanner, and they shipped it to me next day (at my expense) where I urgently needed my laptop the following day--it was boxed and packaged nicely and sent to FedEx for me for free. I just had to send them a PDF label. They simply verified serial number. They had a great lost and found tracking system and called me "customer."

The other time I brought some Chinese takeout that had a lot of liquid in it. The scanner said for future reference try to order drier dishes (I brought a papaya with soup embedded in the cavity), but she was going to look the other way and winked at me and told me to enjoy dinner.

Never had to wait long either (but I have TSA Precheck) and don't recall being barked at... I did have to wait quite a bit in the official TSA Precheck line in EWR though (those were DHS employees) and dealt with a slew of surly employees...

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#187

Post by casicone »

mikeash wrote: post #70
orblivion wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To protect those on the ground, part of the option could be acknowledging that the military can take out your plane if it's hijacked.

That's far from guaranteed to work. And are you going to be paying for the F-16s on hot standby around the country?

This already happens. WADS, EADS, etc.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#188

Post by alanwatts »

dragontamer wrote: post #136
Amorymeltzer wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I arrive at the airport in a Lyft. That costs money. Many people take the train or a shuttle or lean on a friend. >I walk up to the security checkpoint checkpoint, where I show the agent my phone. They see my boarding pass with the green checkmark and send me to the empty TSA Pre line. I walk through the metal detector with no adjustments to my attire. You paid for that TSA PreCheck privilege which, while not in the…

> 3. Profit! The Department of Homeland Security (of which the TSA is a part of) has a budget and its priorities are set in Congress. There is no "profit" motive here. The US is throwing money at this problem, and money that only creates inconveniences for us.

The 2nd US Secretary of Homeland Security and co-author of the Patriot Act is the founder of a lobbying front for the the manufacturers of the body scanners.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Chertoff

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#189

Post by alanwatts »

dragontamer wrote: post #136
Amorymeltzer wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I arrive at the airport in a Lyft. That costs money. Many people take the train or a shuttle or lean on a friend. >I walk up to the security checkpoint checkpoint, where I show the agent my phone. They see my boarding pass with the green checkmark and send me to the empty TSA Pre line. I walk through the metal detector with no adjustments to my attire. You paid for that TSA PreCheck privilege which, while not in the…

> 3. Profit! The Department of Homeland Security (of which the TSA is a part of) has a budget and its priorities are set in Congress. There is no "profit" motive here. The US is throwing money at this problem, and money that only creates inconveniences for us.

The 2nd US Secretary of Homeland Security and co-author of the Patriot Act is the founder of a lobbying front for the the manufacturers of the body scanners.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Chertoff

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#190

Post by alanwatts »

dragontamer wrote: post #136
Amorymeltzer wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I arrive at the airport in a Lyft. That costs money. Many people take the train or a shuttle or lean on a friend. >I walk up to the security checkpoint checkpoint, where I show the agent my phone. They see my boarding pass with the green checkmark and send me to the empty TSA Pre line. I walk through the metal detector with no adjustments to my attire. You paid for that TSA PreCheck privilege which, while not in the…

> 3. Profit! The Department of Homeland Security (of which the TSA is a part of) has a budget and its priorities are set in Congress. There is no "profit" motive here. The US is throwing money at this problem, and money that only creates inconveniences for us.

The 2nd US Secretary of Homeland Security and co-author of the Patriot Act is the founder of a lobbying front for the the manufacturers of the body scanners.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Chertoff

Post reply on HN