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The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

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Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#91

Post by pc86 »

saryant wrote: post #33
pmontra wrote: post #27

> Airports should kick out the TSA I'm not American and haven't been there for a long time so forgive my ignorance. TSA is an agency of DHS so I believed that its presence in airports was mandated by the government. Can airports really replace it with anybody they like? If this is the case, why they didn't do it before? Only because TSA is for free and airports have to pay private security companies?

Airports can replace the TSA with private contracts. SFO farmed security out to a company called Covenant. They still have to follow TSA policies and aren't necessarily an improvement from a passenger standpoint. I.e., you're still getting yelled at by otherwise-unemployable nitwits on a power trip.

Disclaimer: I've never flown into or out of SFO.

The small benefit being that it's probably much easier to fire one group of nitwits.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#92

Post by ArkyBeagle »

avn2109 wrote: post #28
rhino369 wrote: post #4

It's easy to say that TSA sucks (it does), but it's hard to propose a workable alternative. Well alternative 1, stop making us take off our shoes and taking out our laptops, its clear from pre-check that it's not really necessary. You need some security. That was clear before 9-11. Airports had security and it was pretty similar to how TSA does it right now. You put your bags on an Xray machine, show your ID, and wal…

All those problems you mention are real, but they're not the main problem. The real problem with the TSA is that it's explicitly unconstitutional, since the 4th amendment explicitly prohibits search and seizure without a warrant. "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon…

I don't know that it's there, but it would be eminently possible to assign to the act of buying a ticket agreement to be subject to these rigors. Indeed, I'm guessing it is true, but just haven't looked it up.

"Persons, houses and effects" is domain-dependent and cannot be made absolute.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#93

Post by pc86 »

tptacek wrote: post #69
pc86 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. GA is not limited to the rich. Once you're at about the median US income (or 1/3 of what an SV developer makes, give or take), it is within reach. Slightly more than that and it's starts approaching "affordable," especially as a hobby and not a means of transportation. 2. Money buys you things. By definition people with more money will not be burdened by the same things as those with less.

Private jet travel is probably _not_ within reach for the average SV developer.

I know the poster specifically mentioned a jet but GA in general is absolutely within reach. With a license it costs maybe $150/hr to fly a Cessna 172 (and you're usually only billed for time the engine's actually running).

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#94

Post by mikeash »

lisper wrote: post #73
mikeash wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back when there was little to no airport security at all, hijackings were far more common than they are now. In the late 60s and early 70s, hijackings ran in the dozens per year. I see no evidence that TSA-style pat-downs and shoe removal and liquid bans are necessary, but it does appear to be useful to have some minimal level of screening so that a crazy person doesn't just toss an AK-47 in his bag and take it on th…

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11723190

I disagree with the premise that 9/11 ended the hijacking threat. It ended the threat with basic security in place, because 40 unarmed passengers versus four hijackers armed with box cutters means the hijackers lose. Let the hijackers bring semiautomatic guns and that equation changes radically.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#95

Post by avn2109 »

rhino369 wrote: post #49
avn2109 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All those problems you mention are real, but they're not the main problem. The real problem with the TSA is that it's explicitly unconstitutional, since the 4th amendment explicitly prohibits search and seizure without a warrant. "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon…

It's reasonable to get searched walking onto someone's airplane.

Yes, by employees of the organization operating that airplane. Notably, the constitution does not prohibit search and seizure performed by airline employees who are unaffiliated with the government.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#96

Post by joering2 »

carsongross wrote: post #50

The TSA is obviously a complete clusterfuck, but it is offering us an important lesson: Despite everyone hating it, including Big Business, it persists and will likely continue to exist until the U.S. Government collapses. It is nearly impossible to ratchet back a government program dedicated to "security", among other sacred words. Look at the solutions being offered: add more workers, more bomb dogs, etc. The syste…

> The system cannot fix itself. Perhaps the system does not want to fix itself.

Absolutely! The horrible truth is that there is nothing to fix when you make hundreds of millions of dollars off of scared public. If you don't believe me, ask Chertoff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Chertoff#Body_scanners

http://gawker.com/5437499/why-is-michael-chertoff-so-excited...

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#97

Post by cm3 »

a_c_s wrote: post #88
cm3 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't give them ideas. I like relaxed train rides and would hate having to go through the intrusive time waste and annoyance anytime I step foot on a train station. I don't like flying because there are so many annoyances these days. The money grab is another problem. I cannot bring fluids through security but I can buy as many bottles of liquor and alcoholised fluids as I want before boarding. I'm surprised n…

You can bring a water bottle: most airports now have water bottle filling stations alongside their drinking fountains.

Haven't seen those in Europe yet.

There's enough stuff sold after the security check which can be used for mixtures one could cause problems with. There's food, liquor, batteries, electronics, smokes, lighters, watches, power outlets, and many other things after the security check. You can even buy clothes there.

If I didn't know the outcome would be more restrictions, I'd love for an investigative journalist to go through there with an expert and have them build a chaos device of some sort just with elements bought after the security check. If somebody did this on media, it wouldn't help fix the theater, we would only get more restrictions, although I hope that wouldn't be the case.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#98

Post by pavel_lishin »

pc86 wrote: post #93
tptacek wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private jet travel is probably _not_ within reach for the average SV developer.

I know the poster specifically mentioned a jet but GA in general is absolutely within reach. With a license it costs maybe $150/hr to fly a Cessna 172 (and you're usually only billed for time the engine's actually running).

How much does it cost to get a license?

Can a Cessna 172 take me and my wife and child across the country to New York? Is parking a plane there free?

"Especially as a hobby" has nothing to do with what we're talking about here. Horseback riding is also affordable as a hobby, but nobody's bringing it up in a thread about the TSA because it has just as much relevance.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#99

Post by mikeash »

s_m_t wrote: post #84
mikeash wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's far from guaranteed to work. And are you going to be paying for the F-16s on hot standby around the country?

Paying for some F-16s on standby at certain points around the country seems reasonable to me. I mean, the TSA costs us ~7 billion a year anyways.

I agree, but if some people are going to cause a disproportionate need for them, then those people should pay for it more than the rest.

Really, though, that was more of a glib remark. The more salient point IMO is the fact that the military is far from guaranteed to succeed in bringing down a hijacked airliner before it hits its target, or without killing other people on the ground.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#100

Post by avn2109 »

ArkyBeagle wrote: post #92
avn2109 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All those problems you mention are real, but they're not the main problem. The real problem with the TSA is that it's explicitly unconstitutional, since the 4th amendment explicitly prohibits search and seizure without a warrant. "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon…

I don't know that it's there, but it would be eminently possible to assign to the act of buying a ticket agreement to be subject to these rigors. Indeed, I'm guessing it is true, but just haven't looked it up. "Persons, houses and effects" is domain-dependent and cannot be made absolute.

If cupping my butt cheeks is not a "search of my person" then I don't know what is.
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