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Cops Cuffed Me for Selling My Own Mac

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Re: Cops Cuffed Me for Selling My Own Mac

#71

Post by mcphage »

bearcobra wrote: post #68
mcphage wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And neither equal "guilty until proven innocent".

Isn't it an underlying principle? It's meant to prevent detainment without proof of guilt. Otherwise, people could be held indefinitely for no reason. Now obviously there is a gray area between "hey we can't hold on to anyone until the courts say so" and "I don't like the look of that guy, lets put him in jail." But I don't think it's unfair to argue that handcuffing and pointing a weapon at someone who has not posed…

> Otherwise, people could be held indefinitely for no reason.

There are definite restrictions on that—however, they're after a few days in jail, not after 10 minutes in cuffs.

Re: Cops Cuffed Me for Selling My Own Mac

#72

Post by dahart »

mcphage wrote: post #69
dahart wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your first sentence is correct, you're right there. But it does mean they're not allowed to point weapons at people and threaten violence without probable cause or reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. That's what presumption of innocence means, you treat innocent people like they're innocent. Pulling a taser on someone is not presumption of innocence, that's presumption of guilt. Police are allowed to investiga…

> I'm really not sure why you're still defending the actions of the police, who clearly did something wrong in this case, and dismissing the experience of a citizen who did absolutely nothing wrong and was threatened. Because I don't think it's clear (or even true) that the police did something wrong in this case. A crime occurred, through their investigation they believed the author to be a suspect, they investigate…

Okay, I understand where you're coming from. The police should be allowed to do their jobs, and I don't think the article is claiming otherwise, nor am I.

"This should not be allowed to happen" isn't saying the police can't investigate. The "this" that's being discussed is whether they should be able to storm the situation SWAT style with weapons drawn, not whether they should attempt to locate a perp, verify stolen property, or do the proper paperwork.

The problem I have with your argument is that you're glossing over the threat of violence and use of weapons. You're calling that "investigate" and painting it as something demure. I don't feel like you're being completely honest by insisting on calling it "investigate". Drawing weapons is not an investigation, that's a detainment of a suspect. The investigation could have happened another way, it could have involved asking first, it could have involved checking the serial numbers they already had access to, it could have involved everything without the taser, it could have been conducted in private, the police could have announced their intentions and their names and not tried so hard to scare the guy into submission.

Regardless of what the article said, and whether you like it or not, "this" already isn't allowed to happen under the law, it's just not enforced much. The law is already clear that police can't pull a weapon on someone or detain them unless they have reason to believe that specific person was involved in a crime. We already decided this, it's a done deal. So the article is right, it should not be allowed to happen this way.

Re: Cops Cuffed Me for Selling My Own Mac

#73

Post by jmcmichael »

searine wrote: post #51
jmcmichael wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If one has ever been cuffed or had a weapon pointed at them, they're far less likely to be so cavalier in dismissing another's similar experience. Given that African Americans are far, far more likely to be unjustly detained in such a matter, it seems reasonable to assume that mcphage is a white male, given his callous response.

>it seems reasonable to assume that mcphage is a white male Being racist might seem reasonable, but it is not constructive because you use it to ignore the content of the poster's argument. Even if the content of the poster's argument is flawed, attack the flaws, not the person.

> Being racist

That word doesn't mean what you appear to believe that it means. I do not hold the belief that one race is superior to another, nor do I hold the belief that society should exploit or disadvantage individuals based on their race. Therefore I am not being racist, nor was my statement.

It's perfectly within the bounds of reasonable discourse to question the underlying assumptions of another's worldview to show that their assertions come from a biased perspective that requires examination.

Re: Cops Cuffed Me for Selling My Own Mac

#74

Post by searine »

jmcmichael wrote: post #73
searine wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it seems reasonable to assume that mcphage is a white male Being racist might seem reasonable, but it is not constructive because you use it to ignore the content of the poster's argument. Even if the content of the poster's argument is flawed, attack the flaws, not the person.

> Being racist That word doesn't mean what you appear to believe that it means. I do not hold the belief that one race is superior to another, nor do I hold the belief that society should exploit or disadvantage individuals based on their race. Therefore I am not being racist, nor was my statement. It's perfectly within the bounds of reasonable discourse to question the underlying assumptions of another's worldview t…

> to show that their assertions come from a biased perspective that requires examination.

But you didn't show it. You assumed it, based on their race.

Re: Cops Cuffed Me for Selling My Own Mac

#76

Post by dang »

loeg wrote: post #40

https://github.com/mark And yet, he is a white male. It's a mindset problem where you project your experiences on everyone else.

Please don't invoke someone's personal details here to make a point in an argument. That's a significant breach of HN's rules, and this argument is already nasty.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11715005 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Cops Cuffed Me for Selling My Own Mac

#77

Post by fsloth »

Pxtl wrote: post #38
fsloth wrote: post #4

Pointing a taser at someones neck sounds like incredible lack of professionalism. How long are cops trained there?

This, to me, is the real problem. Not that they investigated an accusation of a crime, but that they immediately resorted to serious threats of violence. Police officers are trained to do this. The level of fear they carry with them is massive, and so they have an absolute need for control. Watch some police training videos and you'll see, many of them follow the same template of "officer managing mundane situatGUNFI…

So the police act as if targeted by guerrillas at all times? Sounds strangely of actual class-warfare.

As an extreme counter example, I've understood Norwegian police are unarmed and pick guns only if situation obviously requires it. So there is nothing intrinsic in the role of a police officer that would require this level of aggression. Is US really that violent?

Re: Cops Cuffed Me for Selling My Own Mac

#78

Post by 1024core »

searine wrote: post #34
1024core wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He was investigated, nothing was found, and he was released. Let me guess: you're a white male, aren't you? When these things happen to others but don't happen to you, you can pass it off as "mistakes happen". But when these "mistakes" happen only to a certain section of society, it's a cause for concern. Why was he handcuffed and had a taser on his back?? Why was he treated like a criminal in front of everybody? Y…

>Let me guess: you're a white male, aren't you? This is an extremely shitty and racist argument to make, particularly on the internet where you shouldn't make assumptions about who people are. Were the cops wrong in being overzealous? Obviously. Is the poster automatically a "white male" because they consider an alternative perspective? No, they just have a different opinion than you.

Let me give you an example. I'm not a white male. My girlfriend is white. I have learned, after several experiences, that if you are pulled over, you roll down your window, keep your hands on the steering wheel, look straight and answer "yes sir", "no sir". Deviation from this protocol can result in anything from a search, to a beatdown (in extreme cases).

She, on the contrary, has not. She has been pulled over a few times, of course.

2 months ago, coming back from visiting a friend in NorCal, I pulled on to the highway and as I was merging, sped up. A CHP car just happened to be there, and tagged me. We were pulled over. I immediately assumed the aforementioned stance. She, on the other hand, decided to cheerfully take off her seatbelt, turn around and start digging into her bag on the rear seat, looking for a book, her glasses, etc. And the officer could see this rummaging from his vehicle.

What ensued, was not pretty. Lets just say that my GF has a new perspective on how to behave when pulled over.

My point is: unless you belong to a set that is consistently treated differently, you will never understand their point of view.

Re: Cops Cuffed Me for Selling My Own Mac

#79

Post by coldtea »

fsloth wrote: post #4

Pointing a taser at someones neck sounds like incredible lack of professionalism. How long are cops trained there?

Since they don't have repercussions from hitting people (like losing their job, etc.) and since they might be sadists and enjoy it (like tons of them are openly racist and sexist), it's not really the length of their training that matters...

Re: Cops Cuffed Me for Selling My Own Mac

#80

Post by coldtea »

mcphage wrote: post #15

> Unfortunately, you’ve got a lot of police misconduct, but I never thought it would be on this level. [...] You’re innocent until proven guilty. I was guilty until proven innocent. He was investigated, nothing was found, and he was released. He wasn't arrested, charged, taken to jail, let alone "guilty until proven innocent".

>He was investigated, nothing was found, and he was released. He wasn't arrested, charged, taken to jail, let alone "guilty until proven innocent".

The docility with which the american public takes those abuses (in a country with record police shootings and a wholly disproportionate number of inmates) always amuses me...

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