The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions • Hacker News Board

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#101

Post by danieldon » Sat, Mar 06, 2010, 9:21 AM UTC

ekiru wrote: post #68

danieldon wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you read a different post, but the one linked here simply argues that "any black person will tell you, when black folks date online they don't go to OKcupid," then lists a bunch of sites targeting black users and concludes that the OKCupid data is not representative of the public at large, despite the complete absence of supporting data. I don't see an analysis of data, just a hypothesis.

Actually, it said "when black people who don't want to date non-black people date online, they go to one of the black-only dating sites rather than dating sites aimed at the general population." It did still simply provide a hypothesis, but it is at least a plausible hypothesis that might explain the data. One would need further data to determine its validity, of course.

    it is at least a plausible hypothesis

It might seem plausible if you share the same preconceptions as Ta-Nehisi Coates. But where's the data? Plenty of things that sound plausible to some people turn out to be unsupported by data, particularly when they are issues that people are emotionally invested in and issues that, like this one, have heavy social and political components.

Racial views in the US are absolutely filled with (and arguably dominated by) gross misconceptions that seem plausible to many people despite being untrue.

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#102

Post by ErrantX » Sat, Mar 06, 2010, 10:42 AM UTC

_pius wrote: post #72

natrius wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see what's unserious about it. It's an incorrect explanation of the effect at work, but it was still a valuable comment.

The comment essentially said: "black women are fatter than white women, which is why they don't do as well on OKCupid." That doesn't strike me as particularly serious or valuable, especially when a quick look at the OKCupid methodology would have ruled it out immediately.

The great thing about hacker news is that people aren't worried about voicing ideas backed up with data - even if in wider society you'd probably get denounced for it.

In this case the rationale was voiced, considered and then rejected - all correctly. If OKCupid had NOT filtered for that data would you consider the comment equally valueless?

This is a triumph of the scientific process IMO :)

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#103

Post by ErrantX » Sat, Mar 06, 2010, 10:50 AM UTC

henrikschroder wrote: post #15

petercooper wrote: post #7

That's because all the black men who don't want to date white women are on the African American Dating Network or Blacksinglesconnection. There simply is no real white corollary. Stormfront excluded, there aren't many "WhiteSingles" websites or "EliteIvory" dating sites. There is no Caucasian Dating Network, because the broader world is the Caucasian Dating Network. [..] Disagree. The reason there are no popular whit…

Why should it be hideous? Let me try an analogy. Discrimination based on sexual orientation is illegal in a lot of places, and seen as equally bad as discrimination based on race. But there are plenty of dating sites that are exclusively targeted to gay men or lesbian women. If you think that race segregating dating sites are bad, then what are dating sites that segregate on sexual orientation? Are they also bad? But…

You've got that example the wrong way round.

Homosexuality is in the minority, so are black people (in the societies we are discussing).

So the counter example would be a "straights only" website. Which almost certainly would cause an outcry if you said it explicitly.

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#104

Post by ErrantX » Sat, Mar 06, 2010, 11:01 AM UTC

pw0ncakes wrote: post #8

jrockway wrote: post #5

This isn't explicit anywhere, but OkCupid is all about subgroups. For many people, there is an equal number of guys and girls in each sub-group, so message response rates are consistent and people are generally happy. It seems like, for black girls, that there is not an equal subgroup; there aren't enough guys that find them interesting for all of them. So the girls desperately respond to every message, and the guys…

I'm sure you don't mean to do so, but you shouldn't compare black women to "u r so hawt" guys. Very different categories, and very different dating problems. The moron can stop being a moron and learn how to write decent messages. In addition, his disadvantage is a shortcoming that sends a strong signal about his worthiness for a relationship. The black woman's disadvantage comes from her being black, which will neve…

I know a couple of beautiful, smart, incredible black women in their mid-20s who haven't even kissed a guy, much less been in a relationship

The majority of my friends (both white and black), in their mid twenties, fall into this category (not really been in a relationship).

I think the only major dating disadvantage for black women is that they are living in a majority white society which will, clearly, have a preference for white women (not in a racist sense; I don't think that has as big an impact as people insinuate). Im white and as non-racist as they come and I dont particularly find black women attractive (though I have dated a few).

I think the GP your replying too wasn't comparing the problems faced by the two demographics; simply the result. And pointing out that one could be quantified exactly because of the fact you mention (it's hard to change skin colour).

As it happens I think that the capacity for change and the actual ability to do so are very different. "u r so hawt" guys are not "u r so hawt" guys for one single reason (as opposed to black women) but in the majority of cases a change is unlikely enough to happen, on average, as to make it impossible. Low intelligence is a common factor - and that is just has hard to change :)

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#105

Post by ErrantX » Sat, Mar 06, 2010, 11:11 AM UTC

psyklic wrote: post #56

orblivion wrote: post #53

What the hell does not finding black women attractive have to do with racism? This has nothing to do with what's "considered" beautiful, as if beauty is something to be considered logically. A lot of white people just don't find black people attractive. What, do you want white men to date black women they find unattractive out of fairness ? That's just condescending, it doesn't do anybody's self esteem any good. The…

There was a lot of debate on this surrounding the original OKCupid blog post. In summary, it is subconciously racism. I may not find people of a certain race attractive. However, let's say that I become good friends with some people of that race. Then, I will see that they are like me, and I will start to find some people of that race attractive too. (Of course there are exceptions, but this is how it generally works…

I think it is wrong to call this racism. Even subconcious racism.

If it is a lack of interaction it is simply that. :)

On the other hand I think attraction is in two forms; physical and mental attraction. Your talking about the latter but the former is clearly important too.

Genetic physical characteristics are an aspect of this, sure, but I dont think it's racism. I find certain bulgarian (random example) women unattractive because of their genetic characteristics too :)

> people who have gay friends are drastically more likely to support gay marriage

As it happens I have don't think I have gay friends (not for any particular reason) and I fully support gay marriage. :) But I take your point there - and I think it is far more applicable than the first one you made.

(disclaimer: I am an advocate of the idea that the constant use of the term racism when not applied to actual, evil, racism is damaging. And that the best medicine for the whole sorry mess is to no longer worry about it and ostracize elements of society that do)

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#106

Post by count » Sat, Mar 06, 2010, 1:28 PM UTC

byrneseyeview wrote: post #32

randallsquared wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Er, stuffwhitepeoplelike is supposed to be funny precisely because there is no stereotype of what white people really like, isn't it?

I don't think so. In some conservative circles "SWPLs" is a shorthand for "White people who like sushi and NPR (and decry racism despite living in gated communities)".

Common misconception: Gates don't keep black/colored people out, they keep poor people out.

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#107

Post by orblivion » Sat, Mar 06, 2010, 1:32 PM UTC

ErrantX wrote: post #105

psyklic wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a lot of debate on this surrounding the original OKCupid blog post. In summary, it is subconciously racism. I may not find people of a certain race attractive. However, let's say that I become good friends with some people of that race. Then, I will see that they are like me, and I will start to find some people of that race attractive too. (Of course there are exceptions, but this is how it generally works…

I think it is wrong to call this racism. Even subconcious racism. If it is a lack of interaction it is simply that. :) On the other hand I think attraction is in two forms; physical and mental attraction. Your talking about the latter but the former is clearly important too. Genetic physical characteristics are an aspect of this, sure, but I dont think it's racism. I find certain bulgarian (random example) women unat…

> Your talking about the latter but the former is clearly important too.

In his/her defense, I've found that certain girls can actually seem physically attractive once I get to know them. So it's not as cut and dry.

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#108

Post by sokoloff » Sat, Mar 06, 2010, 2:10 PM UTC

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #62

byrneseyeview wrote: post #20

It's more parsimonious to just assume that black women have fewer options. Black men between 20 and 34 (prime mate-choosing years) have an 11% incarceration rate. The unemployment rate and median income among (unincarcerated) black men is also low. So black women are more likely to need to look for people of a different racial background. That means that if everyone has a slight bias towards their own ethnic group, i…

It would be a pretty strange mutation if you didn't have that bias Since this is potentially a sensitive subject, I'll preface my question with the assertion that I'm not offended, just curious. I have no such bias; why do you consider it a "strange mutation?"

I would imagine that the argument of GP is roughly: Suppose in a population at a certain time, 2 simple genetics based traits suddenly become available (visible/detectable) during mate selection.

Trait A has the property that whether you have or don't have a particular expresion of it, you seek mates in the same condition.

Trait B has the property that you randomly select mates without regard to their trait B status matching yours.

Trait A would tend to persist or even be amplified throughout generations, while trait B would be dispersed and become less obvious over generations.

Given the obviousness of race during mate selection, and the fact that the human race as a whole has not homogenized in that dimension, I would say that there is some non-trivial natural preference among humans to pick "like" when seeking mates.

(There are of course obvious flaws in the above thinking, the most obvious I can think of being that societal mobility has only in the last few hundred years made it reasonably practical to date outside the local area in which you were born. I do however think that there's a genetic basis for "birds of a feather" in mate selection, and that that doesn't imply the root cause is an undesirable form of racism.)

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#109

Post by PostOnce » Sat, Mar 06, 2010, 2:56 PM UTC

Mz wrote: post #67

byrneseyeview wrote: post #20

It's more parsimonious to just assume that black women have fewer options. Black men between 20 and 34 (prime mate-choosing years) have an 11% incarceration rate. The unemployment rate and median income among (unincarcerated) black men is also low. So black women are more likely to need to look for people of a different racial background. That means that if everyone has a slight bias towards their own ethnic group, i…

(It would be a pretty strange mutation if you didn't have that bias.) Humorously enough: I have one of the most common white genetic disorders on the planet. It is homozygous recessive, so daddy has to contribute a gene for it to be passed on. The odds of someone who is neither white nor ethnically Jewish carrying the gene are substantially lower than the odds of a white man carrying it. I have tended towards getting…

...It might be awkward to ask someone to have a DNA screening at the point when dating got serious, but it might also be worth your time.

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#110

Post by PostOnce » Sat, Mar 06, 2010, 3:20 PM UTC

pw0ncakes wrote: post #11

jbooth wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When your race makes up 13% of the larger population, the economics for a niche dating site will work out. At 75%, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Also, I can't speak from any racial perspective than that of a white man, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to date a woman who joined a whites-only dating site, and most of the women I've dated or been interested in dating haven't been white anyway.

Here's the thing: Publicly racist white-supremacists are almost always poor, ignorant, and ugly.* Any video you see of the KKK will have some yokel standing in front of a trailer (hilarious amount of garbage strewn across the yard included), overdue for a shave and a shower, proclaiming the greatness of a race he barely belongs to.

I know more than a few racist doctors, lawyers, and architects, but they wouldn't go within miles of a racist organization. Those people just aren't of the same class. It's also an enormous waste of time.

So is your issue the fact that they're racist, or the fact that they're underclass racists? There is a distinction to be made.

Does exclusively dating white people make you racist if you are in no other way racist? I know a girl from New Zealand who is greatly offended by racist remarks and attitudes, but who would never actually date someone outside her race. I suppose that no more makes you racist than not dating men makes you a homophobe (if you're a man, obviously).

*Go read stormfront sometime, it'll disturb you, regardless of how racist you may or may not be, and you'll discover the underclass that I speak of. Erudition & social refinement do not exist there.