How computer programming languages for kids have evolved and where they're going • Hacker News Board

Re: How computer programming languages for kids have evolved and where they're going

#91

Post by imakesnowflakes » Tue, May 17, 2016, 4:19 AM UTC

dpcan wrote: post #89

I built an online IDE for creating HTML5 games in Javascript that is perfect for the classroom. Then I taught a class using just Javascript and HTML5 Canvas to 11 year old kids in my son's class. They were fully capable of using straight black-and-white code to get things done. And they were thrilled to see their colorful results on the screen. Learning how to clear the background with different colors got them pumpe…

I am of the opinion that kids should not be taught to program computers for these reasons..

1. Programming can be too much gratifying, almost drug like, and will keep the vulnerable kids in front of the computer whole day long, building stuff. This will help them blow the socks off mom and dad, but will make little real difference in their future.

2. learning to program early does not make really better programmers. But there are skills vital to life and experiences that SHOULD be picked and gone through, when they are still kids. This should not be sacrificed for learning coding.

So I think kids should not start programming until they are past their teens..

Source: My experience as a kid who used to blow their parents socks off by making games and 3d graphics in qbasic and turboc...

Re: How computer programming languages for kids have evolved and where they're going

#92

Post by imakesnowflakes » Tue, May 17, 2016, 4:32 AM UTC

kevhito wrote: post #73

unabst wrote: post #70

Having animals and colorful bricks is okay, so long as we're not in conflict with what is actually fun about what is being taught here... Programming is fun because we can control the machine, and make it do things... magically, at our whim, with the right combination of instructions. So compared to that, having a cat walk towards a barn seems like a completely irrelevant layer of entertainment forcefully tailored to…

Have you programmed in scratch for any significant amount of time? I have, so have my kids, and as a CS prof (at a small non-engineering college) I encourage my students to do so too. Before age 10, almost entirely on their own, my kids discovered ideas like abstraction (writing custom blocks), recursion, data representation (e.g. encoding/decoding pairs, structs and lists into arbitrary-precision integers), asynchro…

>they seem to grasp these at a much deeper level than I did at that age..

What real difference will it make in the future? I think none. Some one who understanding recursion when they were 10 will not end up much better programmer than someone who was exposed to it at 20, and have sufficient experience in using the concept. Same with other CS concepts.

The idea of making kids learn this sounds great, because it looks great when kids do stuff with computers. But it is not really giving them and advantage in the future.

Re: How computer programming languages for kids have evolved and where they're going

#93

Post by d99kris » Tue, May 17, 2016, 4:36 AM UTC

Retr0spectrum wrote: post #52

kzhahou wrote: post #23

Why is BASIC totally left out? An entire generation was inspired by power-on basic in C64 and other platforms. More than just "inspired"... Some huge amount of today's technology wouldn't exist otherwise. I know I'm stuck in the past, but that's what I want for my kids. Flip open the laptop and boom, theres my programming environment, except now with easier graphics/sound APIs. Anyone know how to get this, without bu…

Does anyone know if a bootable BASIC interpreter written in x86 asm exists? If not, it might be a fun project.

I built something like that, based on bkerndev (Bran's Kernel Development Tutorial) and the TinyBasic interpreter.

https://github.com/d99kris/nopeos

It's a bit of C and not only asm though. Also - I haven't tested it a lot, as my kid is only 3 years old. :)

Re: How computer programming languages for kids have evolved and where they're going

#94

Post by thomaskcr » Tue, May 17, 2016, 5:56 AM UTC

unabst wrote: post #70

Having animals and colorful bricks is okay, so long as we're not in conflict with what is actually fun about what is being taught here... Programming is fun because we can control the machine, and make it do things... magically, at our whim, with the right combination of instructions. So compared to that, having a cat walk towards a barn seems like a completely irrelevant layer of entertainment forcefully tailored to…

Scratch is more programming than HTML/CSS by far. It has control structures, functions, etc. Aside from the most obvious projects (games), we've used the Kinect for input and directly interfaced with hardware. We've solved a ton of Euler Project problems in scratch and created physics simulations. I'd be hard pressed to find something you can't do in scratch with enough creativity.

For kids, the biggest limiting factor is typing speed. With most languages, as soon as they can think faster than they can type, you hit a second roadblock of frustration where they are thinking too far ahead of what they're doing. Scratch really just abstracts boilerplate for things like showing a sprite and moving it into draggable blocks. The transition from Scratch to Python has historically been pretty easy since most of the kids understand the abstract concepts really well after 1-4 years of Scratch.

Re: How computer programming languages for kids have evolved and where they're going

#95

Post by jarcane » Tue, May 17, 2016, 6:04 AM UTC

kzhahou wrote: post #23

Why is BASIC totally left out? An entire generation was inspired by power-on basic in C64 and other platforms. More than just "inspired"... Some huge amount of today's technology wouldn't exist otherwise. I know I'm stuck in the past, but that's what I want for my kids. Flip open the laptop and boom, theres my programming environment, except now with easier graphics/sound APIs. Anyone know how to get this, without bu…

For the Raspberry Pi, there is Risc OS Pico, a barebones Risc OS image that boots directly to BBC Basic. https://www.riscosopen.org/content/sales/risc-os-pico

There's also the FUZE and FUZE BASIC, a retro-y keyboard case and BASIC dialect for the Pi. https://www.fuze.co.uk/

I would also second the suggestion of the PICO-8, which is a Lua-based retro virtual console complete with its own built-in dev environment. http://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php

Re: How computer programming languages for kids have evolved and where they're going

#96

Post by fsloth » Tue, May 17, 2016, 6:33 AM UTC

elliotec wrote: post #62

methehack wrote: post #5

I've always been suspicious of the looks-like-an-animal-with-a-name-and-a-smiley-face-I'm-a-grown-up-and-this-is-what-kids-like approach. I remember one of the coolest things about the apple II was that you could 'poke' the right memory address and get the speaker to click. That was magic when I was 12 and it didn't need a friendly name and a stupid grin. Until they're old enough for K&R (12?, 13?, 14?), maybe they s…

I strongly agree. Kids are smarter and much more adaptable than the people developing this stuff seem to think. I don't understand why we aren't just exposing them to real programming languages from a very young age, like their native tongue.

Visual programming system such as Scratch eliminates spelling as a source of frustration for younger kids and especially those whose native tongue is not english (on which the syntax of most programming languages is based on).

The logic of programming however, exposes the developer to exactly the same mental processes as programming with a typed language would. I've watched my son programming Scratch and I can guarantee even the typical the bugs are there in same form as in C++. "Why is this not working - oh, I need to initialize this variable not here but inside this loop" and so on.

Re: How computer programming languages for kids have evolved and where they're going

#97

Post by fsloth » Tue, May 17, 2016, 6:44 AM UTC

unabst wrote: post #70

Having animals and colorful bricks is okay, so long as we're not in conflict with what is actually fun about what is being taught here... Programming is fun because we can control the machine, and make it do things... magically, at our whim, with the right combination of instructions. So compared to that, having a cat walk towards a barn seems like a completely irrelevant layer of entertainment forcefully tailored to…

"Having animals and colorful bricks is okay, so long as we're not in conflict with what is actually fun about w that is being taught here..."

The concept of 'fun' is highly personal. Surely you are not suggesting there is only one way to enjoy using a computer :)

"Programming is fun because we can control the machine, and make it do things... magically, at our whim, with the right combination of instructions."

I think you are creating a value statement that is not universally true. My son enjoys programming because he can draw himself a character and the program the character to respond to key presses. The machine between him and the program is irrelevant to him.

Re: How computer programming languages for kids have evolved and where they're going

#98

Post by fsloth » Tue, May 17, 2016, 6:56 AM UTC

methehack wrote: post #5

I've always been suspicious of the looks-like-an-animal-with-a-name-and-a-smiley-face-I'm-a-grown-up-and-this-is-what-kids-like approach. I remember one of the coolest things about the apple II was that you could 'poke' the right memory address and get the speaker to click. That was magic when I was 12 and it didn't need a friendly name and a stupid grin. Until they're old enough for K&R (12?, 13?, 14?), maybe they s…

I don't think when discussing young kids the main motivator should be to teach them to program. Rather, as a parent I like to expose my kids to as many different ways of thinking and expressing one self as possible.

"I remember one of the coolest things about the apple II was that you could 'poke' the right memory address and get the speaker to click. "

My 8 year old enjoys drawing characters in Scratch and then programming game and movement logic for them. Personally, I fail to see which experience has more objective value. Personal experiences such as you describe are mystical in the way that there is no rational way to share them with anyone else or make them understand it unless they've felt it themselves.

I don't really think there is a "wrong way" to have fun with a computer.

I think it's incorrect to view kids programming environments as a part of vocational programming curriculum. Rather, they are yet one more platform where kids can be creative and enjoy building things for themselves, like with Legos.

Re: How computer programming languages for kids have evolved and where they're going

#99

Post by theoapps » Tue, May 17, 2016, 7:04 AM UTC

I think a good intro to programming is video games, especially ones that let you build custom maps (for me it was Age of Empires and Starcraft). All the units and such can be seen as a huge metaphor for object-oriented programming. With some games you can also add in custom scripts. Of course this doesn't teach practical skill, but at least can get them thinking of the concepts while engaging them with something more exciting than hello world or a calculator.

Re: How computer programming languages for kids have evolved and where they're going

#100

Post by freekh » Tue, May 17, 2016, 7:07 AM UTC

I wonder why people are in such a hurry to teach their children CS/things? { rant: `One of my primary complaints from (engineering) school was that we/I never had the time to absorb knowledge and become intuitive with anything (the French engineering school I attended was particularly bad). We were spoon-fed knowledge. In order to sink enough time into a topic and understand the parallels with other things (at least in engineering science/craft) you need a lot of time and focus. This should (must?) not come from discipline but from curiosity. I would argue that (though I am a layman in this subject) adding another exercise to a child's schedule with soccer, birthdays, school, PlayStation, ... doesn't make them more curious. It makes them tired and unfocused just like a grown up if they have too much to do. Give them time to learn and grow instead! Give them the chance to experience mastery and to feel confident, be it playing with rocks in the yard or programming. Let them be bored. Give them time and focus. Do the things you like together so you can share of your experience. If that's is programming then fine, but do it with the tools you like or create so they can see how enthusiastic you are about something. If you like these learning tools, then go for it, but don't force it if you don't. If they are 18 years and still haven't learned to program: relax, there's is plenty of time for that! I suppose this is controversial, but in my experience the hackers that I know learnt coding really young aren't necessarily better than those who learnt it later. Those who have a genuine interest in coding are multiples of their peers.`}