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Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

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Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#401
post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would agree with this--it's interesting to me that a culture that generally views itself as rational has such blind spots when it comes to systemic failures. I would expect that working with systems full of unintended behaviors, non-continuous outputs that can result in sudden failures, etc. should make that obvious, but apparently it doesn't. (Personally, I have never experienced systemic difficulty in my life--bu…

I appreciate your desire to assume stupidity before malice but I've come to see the continuation of oppressive systems as intentional :( People profit off of them and so I'm forced to conclude that they're purpetrated intentionally. I'm not trying to say that there's some movie-like evil villain out there cackling to himself but rather that there are many people making money as a direct or related result of the syste…

Sure, but those aren't the people who are caping up for them on Hacker News. (I mean, some may be, but in general I'm skeptical.)

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a spare moment, so I will do this. I don't expect you will find the argument compelling. 1. The concept that you can "steal a woman's heart from a man" implies a concept of ownership of the woman's heart by the man. Even metaphorically, this is a very toxic sort of thinking. 2. Implying that you should be able to "take possession" of a woman's affection from a man if you find him less worthy only doubles own o…

Tumblr is that-a-way -> www.tumblr.com

I do not understand, but figured from your post history that you would not be very receptive to the message.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enlightenment thinkers like Adam Smith and John Locke were hugely important historically in making the case for liberty. However, they were still products of their time and retain the influences of Christian ethics and Humean skepticism. Adam Smith, for instance, argued that competition was good because it maximised social well-being - which leads directly to the modern viewpoint that free markets are OK but that the…

Locke, who you dismiss with a vague handwave, made, in the Second Treatise on Government , an explicitly moral case for property rights founded upon the principal of individual autonomy. This was not a pragmatic argument. Locke, of course, greatly predates Rand; making a moral rather than pragmatic case for property rights is not an innovation of Rand's. (Locke goes on to make a pragmatic and moral case for popular g…

You're doing what's typical for people trained in modern philosophy when debating online, i.e. complaining that I didn't write a full philosophical treatise in one comment.

E.g., I didn't go into details of my view on Locke because they weren't central to my point. After I became an Objectivist, I did some research on Enlightenment thinkers precisely because people dismiss Objectivists for being ignorant of past philosophy, and what I found tallied with what I'd heard from well-informed Objectivists. Locke is an empiricist and holds that certain knowledge is generally impossible outside of areas like geometry. This skepticism subtly undermines any philosophy built on top of it; Rand's epistemology, in contrast, shows how certain knowledge can be possible (within a particular context), which gives her the framework to build an entire system of integrated principles, basing politics and aesthetics on ethics, and ethics on metaphysics and epistemology.

Likewise, I didn't list what I think is novel in Rand's philosophy as I assumed honest readers could research it for themselves. Here's some: her solution to the is-ought problem, her solution to the problem of universals, her theory of the nature of romantic art, and, obviously, a complete moral code justified via rational self-interest. Locke and other writers did talk about the evils of force (and I often enjoy telling people that "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" was originally Locke's "life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness"). However, it was Rand who first coined the phrase "initiation of force", and Rand who first argued that reason and force were essentially the only two means of dealing with men, making non-initiation of force the fundamental social principle.

(For said honest readers, the books which persuaded me were The Romantic Manifesto and Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology, though Virtue of Selfishness is probably the easiest starting point. Once I studied Nozick's famous criticism of Rand, I concluded that he was someone very smart making a deliberate attempt to misunderstand her argument, and I was pretty much soured permanently on 20th century analytic philosophy, "libertarian" or otherwise).

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Multiple issues here first and foremost the modern environment wherein people can fairly said to have earned what they get from society has never existed in history. The closest thing would be say primitive hunter gatherer societies. Ever since we started having specialists that paid for their decreased production by providing greater fitness for society as a whole benefit from society has only been tangentially rela…

"In a bizarrely unfair real society arguing that you have the right to maximally leverage whatever value you your dad and your grandpa managed to drag away and coral seems greedy and disingenuous." You're arguing against aristocracy, not capitalism. In 19th century America (the most free society in history) there was a phrase "from shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations." In the absence of state-protected…

The 19th century was a terribly limiting time for people that weren't well off, white, males. The part about inherited wealth not lasting is entirely fictional.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#405
post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real difference is in inheritance. Unlimited inheritance over many generations creates a concentration of wealth and an aristocratic class that never earned the wealth they own. Ownership of something you worked to create is different from ownership of something due to luck of being born in the right crib.

Is that kind of "old money" an increasing or decreasing phenomenon? I don't have the numbers, but it seems like a lot of the rich people that come to mind made most of their money during their lifetime. Also, wealth naturally dissipates pretty quickly over generations. One reason is simple fan out. Another reason is that the children are likely to be less frugal, and there's s high chance that some descendants are do…

Money doesn't have to be all that old. Trump, for example, is only second generation money. But still he inherited a couple of hundred million, and wouldn't be where he is now without his rich dad.

How long this wealth lingers van vary a lot. If it gets divided among multiple children, it dillutes pretty quickly, but those children are still far richer than average children. You need either many generations of dillution or some really terrible mismanagement to restore this aristocracy back to regular people. And all those generations in between do wield power and wealth they never earned.

Of course an economic revolution like the internet is giving us, creates a lot of new millionaires and billionaires, and if they let their children inherit their entire wealth, that would create a fresh new aristocracy. Though I'm glad to see that a lot of new billionaires put their money to more philantropic uses. Not all of them, though.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahh yes, "because feminism". Why did I even bother to ask? :-)

I have a spare moment, so I will do this. I don't expect you will find the argument compelling. 1. The concept that you can "steal a woman's heart from a man" implies a concept of ownership of the woman's heart by the man. Even metaphorically, this is a very toxic sort of thinking. 2. Implying that you should be able to "take possession" of a woman's affection from a man if you find him less worthy only doubles own o…

FYI, there was a tongue-in-cheek implication of women as property. Consider the context. I'm making a point that property rights are not an unimpeachable moral imperative.

What I was embarrassed about was callously invoking domestic abuse and mixing it with a cheesy heroism cliche to make that point.

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