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The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

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Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#81

Post by marltod »

danieldon wrote: post #18
carbocation wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is relying on the same data for his assertions as everyone else has been. I see his analysis of that data as no less valid than that of OKCupid, etc.

Maybe you read a different post, but the one linked here simply argues that "any black person will tell you, when black folks date online they don't go to OKcupid," then lists a bunch of sites targeting black users and concludes that the OKCupid data is not representative of the public at large, despite the complete absence of supporting data. I don't see an analysis of data, just a hypothesis.

You are correct, he didn't do a poll to find out what percentage of black people would only go to OKCupid after failing at those others he mentions. So basically this discussion is pointless until this poll is done.

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#82

Post by najirama »

natrius wrote: post #80
najirama wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A "good" predictor must be useful, correct? Well, then how can it be useful if it is wrong more than it is right....? Simply stated, being right more than one is wrong is the same thing as being more accurate than a random assignment (as we approach a large number of "trials") if the outcomes are equally likely. And that is the point - race tells you nothing more significant about class then guessing does (if we remo…

"And that is the point - race tells you nothing more significant about class then guessing does" That's just mathematically incorrect. Different races have different average incomes. If you guess that average for each person, you'll be more accurate than guessing the overall average for everyone. If you're measuring at such a coarse level as upper/middle/lower class, then sure, that doesn't help. Since we're not rely…

You continue to shift terms, so it makes it more difficult to pin you down.

My math is pretty solid - socio-economic classes are defined by values in intervals. So guessing the average income for each race would be guessing what interval? It would be guessing middle class for each race! Remember, you stated the proposition that, 'race is a good class indicator' - thus, we don't care about variance in the interval called middle class...

That is why I explicitly removed it from my analysis - if the only information(class-related) you get from a person's skin color is that they are middle-class, then you have effectively received no information. Certainly you can't be suggesting that those in the middle-class are more likely to commit crimes - can you be?

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#83

Post by natrius »

najirama wrote: post #82
natrius wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And that is the point - race tells you nothing more significant about class then guessing does" That's just mathematically incorrect. Different races have different average incomes. If you guess that average for each person, you'll be more accurate than guessing the overall average for everyone. If you're measuring at such a coarse level as upper/middle/lower class, then sure, that doesn't help. Since we're not rely…

You continue to shift terms, so it makes it more difficult to pin you down. My math is pretty solid - socio-economic classes are defined by values in intervals . So guessing the average income for each race would be guessing what interval? It would be guessing middle class for each race! Remember, you stated the proposition that, 'race is a good class indicator' - thus, we don't care about variance in the interval ca…

First of all, socioeconomic classes are artificial constructs. There's no reason to believe that there are large discontinuities in the probabilities of certain behaviors as income increases, though that is likely the case around poverty level.

From the census document you linked to, here are average household incomes by race:

Asian: $86,185

White, non-Hispanic: $74,102

Hispanic: $51,572

Black: $46,533

If you don't think there are substantial differences there, then we're not going to agree on anything.

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#84

Post by neilc »

psyklic wrote: post #56
orblivion wrote: post #53

What the hell does not finding black women attractive have to do with racism? This has nothing to do with what's "considered" beautiful, as if beauty is something to be considered logically. A lot of white people just don't find black people attractive. What, do you want white men to date black women they find unattractive out of fairness ? That's just condescending, it doesn't do anybody's self esteem any good. The…

There was a lot of debate on this surrounding the original OKCupid blog post. In summary, it is subconciously racism. I may not find people of a certain race attractive. However, let's say that I become good friends with some people of that race. Then, I will see that they are like me, and I will start to find some people of that race attractive too. (Of course there are exceptions, but this is how it generally works…

let's say that I become good friends with some people of that race. Then, I will see that they are like me, and I will start to find some people of that race attractive too.

You suggest that the primary reason you wouldn't be attracted to someone of a race is because you aren't "good friends" with anyone of that race. In my experience, that is false. For example, I know quite a few Asian girls who prefer dating white guys over Asian guys -- would you suggest they "aren't good friends" with any Asians, or that they are subconsciously racist toward Asians?

Different people have different preferences for what they are attracted to; in many cases, those preferences will be correlated with race (e.g. if a girl likes tall men with dark features and olive skin, she is less likely to fall for a 5'5" Norwegian). That's not racism, that's just human nature.

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#85

Post by najirama »

Mz wrote: post #79
najirama wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if I were to allow that the discussion be gender-biased, I'm afraid this wouldn't be accurate... The very poor tend to have poor grooming habits, both in frequency and quality. As such, access to nail clippers is extremely limited... Further, the nature of living in extreme poverty forbids the biting of one's nails; you would be shocked at the amount of dirt and grime that gathers there after just a few days wit…

I am aware that it is not entirely gender-based. However, a quick google turns up this: http://www.efingernails.com/fingernails-history/ Fingernails became shorter and the colours less intense during the 1980's when women became more interested in their work. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/feed/a41653-1999d... Thorsten Veblen wrote in his classic "The Theory of the Leisure Class" (1899). "It not only show…

Both of those links engender the proposition that fingernail length is indeed NOT a good indicator of class.

The class status of women as a whole rose significantly in the 80's as women's pay relative to men's rose from 1980 to 1990 (from 60.2% to 71.6%):

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/03/nyregion/03women.html?ex=1...

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#86

Post by muhfuhkuh »

robotron wrote: post #13
petercooper wrote: post #7

That's because all the black men who don't want to date white women are on the African American Dating Network or Blacksinglesconnection. There simply is no real white corollary. Stormfront excluded, there aren't many "WhiteSingles" websites or "EliteIvory" dating sites. There is no Caucasian Dating Network, because the broader world is the Caucasian Dating Network. [..] Disagree. The reason there are no popular whit…

petercooper has a very valid point. A whitedating.com site would cause an uproar, even if it was done as tastefully as possible. The anti-racist reactive culture we have is too quick to jump on something like that. Note: I'm not white.

irishsinglesnetwork.com italianosingles.com jdate.com ldsromances.com (kind of a stretch, but how many black mormons are there, really?) ...

The reason they have a "black singles site" is because Black people were bred for their physical abilities rather than their nationality, by their slavemasters. Which is why it's nearly impossible to have 10th or 15th generation Sudanese-american people, for example. Whereas you can trace some white roots back to the Mayflower. Because white people had a choice. I mean, now black people of course have a choice too, but for a really really REALLY long time, they didn't.

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#87

Post by Mz »

najirama wrote: post #85
Mz wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am aware that it is not entirely gender-based. However, a quick google turns up this: http://www.efingernails.com/fingernails-history/ Fingernails became shorter and the colours less intense during the 1980's when women became more interested in their work. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/feed/a41653-1999d... Thorsten Veblen wrote in his classic "The Theory of the Leisure Class" (1899). "It not only show…

Both of those links engender the proposition that fingernail length is indeed NOT a good indicator of class. The class status of women as a whole rose significantly in the 80's as women's pay relative to men's rose from 1980 to 1990 (from 60.2% to 71.6%): http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/03/nyregion/03women.html?ex=1...

It is not as simple as that. Women going to work in large numbers means they stopped being part of a "leisure class". A non-working wife is a status symbol. It means the man makes enough that his wife doesn't need to work. Nothing is sweepingly one thing or the other. But, in general, long fingernails have historically been a status symbol/class indicator -- long, clean, well-groomed and often decorated (painted, treated with henna, etc), not long and filthy.

Long fingernails are also a fairly strong "sex" symbol. One prostitute wrote in her biography that she could work at the mall by wearing very high heels and long, red fingernails. I will also add that long nails are an indicator of health (trying not to turn every discussion towards my medical condition, but my genetic disorder is how I know this one so well) -- and that tends to be linked to class in that wealthier classes tend to be better fed.

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#88

Post by jondoh »

It's nice to see somebody making an effective argument against those high-and-mighty OkCupid data lords. I've read a number of their posts, and they are actually quite careless in making assertions as though they are experts.

Anyone who works with data knows that subtle changes in how you define a metric can lead to drastically different findings. Ever heard the saying: "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics." In real science, you need to do everything possible to try to prove yourself wrong, and fail. They hardly seem to do anything so rigorous. They choose one metric, see what the outcome is - gasp, something sensational! Write a post about it.

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#89

Post by gruseom »

jondoh wrote: post #88

It's nice to see somebody making an effective argument against those high-and-mighty OkCupid data lords. I've read a number of their posts, and they are actually quite careless in making assertions as though they are experts. Anyone who works with data knows that subtle changes in how you define a metric can lead to drastically different findings. Ever heard the saying: "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics." In…

They lost me when I noticed they were mucking around with chart axes to make effects look more significant than they are (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1065203), surely the oldest trick in the book. Besides that, the posts can only count as pseudo-scientific in the absence of the data being available for review. But such criticisms do kind of miss the point, which is that this has been very effective marketing.

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#90

Post by [deleted] »

najirama wrote: post #82
natrius wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And that is the point - race tells you nothing more significant about class then guessing does" That's just mathematically incorrect. Different races have different average incomes. If you guess that average for each person, you'll be more accurate than guessing the overall average for everyone. If you're measuring at such a coarse level as upper/middle/lower class, then sure, that doesn't help. Since we're not rely…

You continue to shift terms, so it makes it more difficult to pin you down. My math is pretty solid - socio-economic classes are defined by values in intervals . So guessing the average income for each race would be guessing what interval? It would be guessing middle class for each race! Remember, you stated the proposition that, 'race is a good class indicator' - thus, we don't care about variance in the interval ca…

[deleted]
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