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Autonomous corporation “The DAO” has become the biggest crowdfunded project

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Re: Autonomous corporation “The DAO” has become the biggest crowdfunded project

#71

Post by street »

drcode wrote: post #46
street wrote: post #36

The DAO isn't actually worth 120 million. For one, it's based on the price of ETH, which would completely crash if you attempted to sell even a few million worth. Secondly, everyone can withdraw their funds from the DAO before any funds are sent to projects. Many have invested because those who invested early make money from those investing later, since the number of "DAO tokens" you get per "ETH" has gone down over…

> The DAO isn't actually worth 120 million. I you tried to sell all Apple stock in a single day it would also sell at well below market rate- Does that mean Apple is worth less than its market cap? That said, I personally have not invested/speculated in the DAO because I just don't see it as a good opportunity.

I just sold one of my hairs to myself for $10. Is my head now worth a million?

With Apple, there's intrinsic value to consider. And frankly, if you sold enough Apple stock for it to go down 50%, I'd personally start buying. I doubt that's the case for ETH, where there's only early adopters buying it hoping to strike it rich.

Re: Autonomous corporation “The DAO” has become the biggest crowdfunded project

#72

Post by kuschku »

Bjorkbat wrote: post #44

An interesting concept, but I'm not buying the hype. At the end of the day a bunch of people bought shares in a company (or did they? Legality is weird) with the special condition that in addition to owning a share of said company they also get to vote on what the company actually does, and even submit proposals for what it should do. Oh, and they also bought said shares with cryptocurrency. Magic internet money guys…

> Admittedly I think enabling this kind of democracy in a company is a bad idea. It might actually wind up being less nimble than an actual corporation because of the extra consensus required.

This stuff is also known as a cooperative, and is a very common concept for democratic companies – almost all housing in europe is owned like this.

Re: Autonomous corporation “The DAO” has become the biggest crowdfunded project

#73

Post by Joof »

Bjorkbat wrote: post #44

An interesting concept, but I'm not buying the hype. At the end of the day a bunch of people bought shares in a company (or did they? Legality is weird) with the special condition that in addition to owning a share of said company they also get to vote on what the company actually does, and even submit proposals for what it should do. Oh, and they also bought said shares with cryptocurrency. Magic internet money guys…

I presume the community is to blame and they learn from the mistakes.

Re: Autonomous corporation “The DAO” has become the biggest crowdfunded project

#74

Post by steego »

Bjorkbat wrote: post #44

An interesting concept, but I'm not buying the hype. At the end of the day a bunch of people bought shares in a company (or did they? Legality is weird) with the special condition that in addition to owning a share of said company they also get to vote on what the company actually does, and even submit proposals for what it should do. Oh, and they also bought said shares with cryptocurrency. Magic internet money guys…

You shouldn't buy into the hype, especially from that hyperbolic story with silly blurbs like "The DAO is a paradigm shift in the very idea of economic organization."

However, I don't think we should be flippantly dismissing the idea with phrases like "magic internet money", because if it proves itself to be minimally viable, it would really speak to a young demographic of investors who don't trust financial institutions or their products.

Granted, this sort of tool is probably very ill suited for running a large corporation, but it might be ideal for Kickstarter-like organizations who want to fund a series of ideas or companies for equity. Some tasks are better suited for experienced professionals, while other tasks are better suited toward the wisdom of the crowds. (Tasks that great benefit from semi-informed polling)

My best guess is this might become a useful tool for a niche investment market.

Re: Autonomous corporation “The DAO” has become the biggest crowdfunded project

#75

Post by jaytaylor »

CharlesMerriam2 wrote: post #61
noonespecial wrote: post #15

Charlie Stross is smiling somewhere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerando

Closer to Daniel Suarez, Daemon & Freedom. http://www.amazon.com/DAEMON-Daniel-Suarez/dp/0451228731 This fiction starts the autonomous corporation from a vide game. The second book shows society's evolution to cope with the new corporation.

@CharlesMeeriam2 You beat me to it, I came here to post just this!!!

This article reads as though it were a page straight out of Suarez's Daemon series.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_(novel_series)

Re: Autonomous corporation “The DAO” has become the biggest crowdfunded project

#76

Post by drcode »

will_brown wrote: post #60
tonyswish wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are many legitimate concerns about this project, but what you are saying address none of them. In fact your first questions mean you don't understand it.

I think as a lawyer who practices a great deal of corporate transactions, I have a much better idea than most on the legal structure and compliance issue with corporations on a state by state basis. But instead of telling me my question shows I don't understand, please answer any of the following: -Are the token holders shareholders? -If shareholders do the token holders also get to vote for the board, or are their t…

> I think as a lawyer who practices a great deal of corporate transaction

Well, I think we can both see these systems are an attempt to circumvent individuals like yourself (At least partially, some human legal representation will likely still be used.)

Taxi drivers similarly complained a lot about the legality of Uber.

(BTW, my wife is also a corporate lawyer.)

Re: Autonomous corporation “The DAO” has become the biggest crowdfunded project

#77

Post by dragonwriter »

drcode wrote: post #76
will_brown wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think as a lawyer who practices a great deal of corporate transactions, I have a much better idea than most on the legal structure and compliance issue with corporations on a state by state basis. But instead of telling me my question shows I don't understand, please answer any of the following: -Are the token holders shareholders? -If shareholders do the token holders also get to vote for the board, or are their t…

> I think as a lawyer who practices a great deal of corporate transaction Well, I think we can both see these systems are an attempt to circumvent individuals like yourself (At least partially, some human legal representation will likely still be used.) Taxi drivers similarly complained a lot about the legality of Uber. (BTW, my wife is also a corporate lawyer.)

This isn't a complaint about the legality of the DAO, but that the description of it as a "corporation" is simply false. A corporation refers to a specific type of legal entity, which the DAO simply is not.

All the questions will_brown asks are simple and straightforward and meaningful for any corporation. They are in some cases murky and/or inapplicable for the DAO, because the DAO is very much unlike a corporation.

Re: Autonomous corporation “The DAO” has become the biggest crowdfunded project

#78

Post by c3534l »

There's a reason corporations developed as they did. With a large number of owners, it becomes very difficult to tell what is actually going on in a company and making consistent, sensical decisions is difficult. The result is that we developed a board of directors who are elected by the owners to oversee the performance of the top employees at that company, and a complex of system of accounting to communicate the financial position of the company directly to investors.

I don't see how this project addresses the two main problems that corporations attempt to solve: a lack of complete information about a company of reasonable size, and a coordinating a large number of people who may not want to devote a full-time job to overseeing the company.

I would be much more impressed if they described this as an open-source investment algorithm or something like. Instead, it seems as if they're trying to sell us on the benefits of a corporation to people who think "corporation" means "big, evil company."

Re: Autonomous corporation “The DAO” has become the biggest crowdfunded project

#80

Post by pnathan »

kuschku wrote: post #72
Bjorkbat wrote: post #44

An interesting concept, but I'm not buying the hype. At the end of the day a bunch of people bought shares in a company (or did they? Legality is weird) with the special condition that in addition to owning a share of said company they also get to vote on what the company actually does, and even submit proposals for what it should do. Oh, and they also bought said shares with cryptocurrency. Magic internet money guys…

> Admittedly I think enabling this kind of democracy in a company is a bad idea. It might actually wind up being less nimble than an actual corporation because of the extra consensus required. This stuff is also known as a cooperative, and is a very common concept for democratic companies – almost all housing in europe is owned like this.

Some actual businesses exist in the coop model. You don't see it much outside of the crunchy granola parts of the US.

Kind of a shame, seems like a nice way to work.

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