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The high price of a free college education in Sweden

theatlantic.com

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Re: The high price of a free college education in Sweden

#31

1. College is not free. It is paid for by parents/grandparents/relatives/friends of the end consumer through very high taxes. It's really a marketing trick - kinda like how these startups call something 'sharing (economy)', when in fact people are trading, not sharing. If the college wasn't labeled "free" and financed through high taxation, then parents/grandparents/relatives/friends would have to pay it anyway if th…

> It's really a marketing trick - kinda like how these startups call something 'sharing (economy)', when in fact people are trading, not sharing.

What is the use in assuming that anyone who has come to a conclusion other than your own has had the wool pulled over their eyes? No self-respecting Swede believes that university is 'free' in the sense you mean it; the costs are palpable to all taxpayers. The argument in favor of 'free' higher education—that is, education for which the costs are borne collectively, rather than by individual students who are presumed not to have funding to match their abilities—typically runs that a better and more widely educated country is a more productive country, and that students of higher education will as a body more than pay back the money given them in the form of schooling. What's more, they will pay their costs forward, offering the same opportunities for succeeding generations.

You argue against this belief, after misrepresenting its proponents as people 'tricked' into thinking that no money has changed hands. That showed poor faith—something that is discouraged on this site—but, I'll move on. You insist that students given a leg up are more likely to squander their chances and to become parasitic, taking more than they put in. But you've given absolutely no evidence for this. Your 'reality check' is nothing more than supposition. Please direct us to numbers that indicate that Swedes are more likely to take degrees which you deem 'worthless,' and less likely to take STEM degrees or study a trade, than countries without 'free' education. Perhaps compare these figures to the US (you're clearly American, as shown by your line about the fervor surrounding Bernie Sanders among Swedish undergraduates). The US has quite high post-secondary tuition, even at its public universities, so if you're right in your thinking there should be far fewer 'parasites' there.

On what grounds do you speak about the left-leaning faculty in the Swedish university system? I certainly have no first- or second-hand experience that I could counter your claims with, but I suspect you have none by which to make them.

In general, a system of 'free' education is at least intended to give each generation as clean a sheet as possible. People may be self-made, but their children are not. 'Free' education provides (better) opportunities for those willing to put in the effort and do the work, regardless of their parents' abilities to land them in a good situation. No system rewards work and only work absolutely; but this is one attempt to do so, and it behooves anyone who wants to engage in actual conversation (as, for instance, on an online forum) to address it as such.

Re: The high price of a free college education in Sweden

#32
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some doing easier course work might. Engineering though? Mutually exclusive at 60+ hours a week workload

nonsense. I typically worked at least 30 hrs a week while a full time engineering student. There were some semesters that I was TA'ing 15 or so hours per week and working another 20-30. Honestly I did better then because I was forced to focus on time management. EDIT: I should add that a lot of this was by necessity because of American college costs...but I look at it as a long term benefit for me personally.

American undergraduate classes are typically easier in my experience,. At the universities I went to (University of Washington and KTH) the Swedish undergraduate classes were more like the graduate classes in my experience. When I say 60+ hours a week I mean it. Who in their right mind works that much and gets a second job? And even if you could that doesn't mean that most people can.

As an example: in the engineering programs of KTH, typically half of the students don't make it through the first year. Many classes has a 70%+ failure rate.

Re: The high price of a free college education in Sweden

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some doing easier course work might. Engineering though? Mutually exclusive at 60+ hours a week workload

Plenty of engineering students at top universities have jobs (not just internships). Time management is key. As someone who hires their own interns and Jr eningeers, it's shocking how few applicants have ANY prior work experience. I had a 15-20hr/wk internship, and worked retail on weekends. However, I often turned in homework that only outlined the knowns, unknowns, drew a diagram, listed equations that were applica…

> 50% credit for 30min of work.

That speaks more for the simplicity of the courses of your university more than against my position. Are you really Swedish? I'm going to assume not. Engineering classes at Swedish universities typically don't give points that add up to a grade cutoff point. You might get an average grade of all projects and finals. The final exam is typically 5 hours long with 5-10 very difficult questions. In my CS program we had to work 60+ hours minimum a week, and classes often had 70%+ failure rates. This is not an environment where you can get a second job, and to my knowledge, none of my classmates or anyone I knew did so, except during summers.

Re: The high price of a free college education in Sweden

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of engineering students at top universities have jobs (not just internships). Time management is key. As someone who hires their own interns and Jr eningeers, it's shocking how few applicants have ANY prior work experience. I had a 15-20hr/wk internship, and worked retail on weekends. However, I often turned in homework that only outlined the knowns, unknowns, drew a diagram, listed equations that were applica…

> 50% credit for 30min of work. That speaks more for the simplicity of the courses of your university more than against my position. Are you really Swedish? I'm going to assume not. Engineering classes at Swedish universities typically don't give points that add up to a grade cutoff point. You might get an average grade of all projects and finals. The final exam is typically 5 hours long with 5-10 very difficult ques…

Heavily impacted engineering program at one of the top University of California campuses.

It spoke for the grading structure of the homework and did not apply to all courses.

Exams and projects were graded much more rigorously and there was a similar drop out/fail rate as you describe.

Not all engineering courses required homework for a grade. Often homework was only worth 5%, exams and projects the remainder. However, weekly problem sets easily consumed 10-15hrs per course, 3-4 courses per quarter.

Professors left it to the student to prove their understanding of coursework through exams. I often suspected due to the high rate of plagerism on homework (copying peers or access to solution guides).

Edit: don't get me wrong, I never had free time as a student. Every free moment outside of class was consumed by studying, working, eating or sleeping. I occasionally skipped lectures to buy free time.

It all came down to risk assessment which is a valuable skill to be learned for industry.

Time management I learned in school has paid off tremendously in my career and is something I seek more than a minimum GPA threshold in my interns and Jr. Eng's.

Re: The high price of a free college education in Sweden

#35

1. College is not free. It is paid for by parents/grandparents/relatives/friends of the end consumer through very high taxes. It's really a marketing trick - kinda like how these startups call something 'sharing (economy)', when in fact people are trading, not sharing. If the college wasn't labeled "free" and financed through high taxation, then parents/grandparents/relatives/friends would have to pay it anyway if th…

eh, Sorry but how is that related to college being free or not. As far as i remember its very expensive in the US and the effects you described still appear.

Re: The high price of a free college education in Sweden

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are assuming that most people are "stupid" and therefore not qualified to study at college. That reeks of highly stratified society like the USA is. I guess nordic coutries just consider that most people are good enough for high education and high education should be able to teach all these people. And nordic countries tend to ace it; they are at the top of all the "human capital quality" ratings.

No, no... I didn't write that most people are stupid (where did you read that?). I wrote that there are certain people who, when given the opportunity to study something for free, will pick really bad majors, like sociology, anthropology etc. Then, those people will have a hard time finding productive employment and some of them might even join the bloated public sector and suck even more tax dollars. The existence o…

psychology is a quack science about boxing in stereotyped people social sciences is basically a field waiting to start existing once neurology is done mapping the human brains (yes, there is not only one, those things described as diseases are just part of the species).

But anthropology, how is that not a solid field? It has a clear cut topic, it has ongoing discussions and has brought us evidence backed up theory's like evolution.

The irony is none the less, that something like a john doe who majored in sociology blogging about the basic income might be more useful in the long run then a john doe working in a steel mill, waiting for a robot to replace him.

Disclaimer: Im in robotics, but ventured into a lot of other fields out of pure interest. TL,DR - Conclusion: If it feels right - its usually wrong, or has a thousand edge cases.

Re: The high price of a free college education in Sweden

#37
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nonsense. I typically worked at least 30 hrs a week while a full time engineering student. There were some semesters that I was TA'ing 15 or so hours per week and working another 20-30. Honestly I did better then because I was forced to focus on time management. EDIT: I should add that a lot of this was by necessity because of American college costs...but I look at it as a long term benefit for me personally.

1) Not everyone can do that, physically or mentally 2) Costs have increased so much, wages have not kept up to allow that to be possible for most people: http://www.vox.com/2015/8/28/9220705/college-working-map

I totally agree with all of those points, I was just providing some anec-data that it does happen.

I paid my tuition almost entirely through co-ops (6th month internships) and then worked while in school to pay my day to day bills. I was also very lucky to have a safety net from my parents if I needed it, although I didn't.

Re: The high price of a free college education in Sweden

#38
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Not everyone can do that, physically or mentally 2) Costs have increased so much, wages have not kept up to allow that to be possible for most people: http://www.vox.com/2015/8/28/9220705/college-working-map

I totally agree with all of those points, I was just providing some anec-data that it does happen. I paid my tuition almost entirely through co-ops (6th month internships) and then worked while in school to pay my day to day bills. I was also very lucky to have a safety net from my parents if I needed it, although I didn't.

Having the "living and supportive family safety net" is definitely under-appreciated as an advantage here in the US. Many who have it don't even realize what an advantage it is.
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