Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

thetimes.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 297 posts

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#131

Post by arca_vorago »

kangar00 wrote: post #83
cm3 wrote: post #5

The CIA is the reason for most of the unstable regions and it's hard to understand how after messing with other places and making it worse for everybody but weapons manufacturers, they're still doing the same thing over and over. Previously it was the fight against Communism, now Islam, I wonder what it will be in 2020. Middle-east, Asia, South America, all are right to be very angry with the CIA, but turn it into a…

> CIA's policy is probably controlled by someone else, and that's where changes need to be made because I like to think they don't come up with the stuff on their own. Beyond you liking to think that, what evidence do you have that the CIA's policy is controlled by anyone other than the CIA's Deputy Director who commands internal operations, and its Director, who reports to the director of National Intelligence as we…

I think you are completely wrong about this. There is plenty of evidence to indicate that "shadow groups" of varied interests that sometimes align and sometimes dont, are often pulling the strings of "public puppets". Your view, while common, (especially in the academic world where conspiracy is avoided like the plague) doesnt seem to reflect reality.

The conspiratorial view of history is the correct one.

Would you like me to go into more detail?

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#132

Post by ciphre »

cm3 wrote: post #5

The CIA is the reason for most of the unstable regions and it's hard to understand how after messing with other places and making it worse for everybody but weapons manufacturers, they're still doing the same thing over and over. Previously it was the fight against Communism, now Islam, I wonder what it will be in 2020. Middle-east, Asia, South America, all are right to be very angry with the CIA, but turn it into a…

I think to really understand what the CIA is doing today you need to look at its history and how it came about after World War II. Created by Truman as a central office for all of the intelligence to be collected by the multitude of spy agencies the US had, started as a small office. By 1963, Truman wrote an op-ed about how it had become the foreign policy arm of the US with no oversight.

Link to op-ed: http://tinyurl.com/hstheus

Congressional oversight of the CIA didn't begin until the Hughes-Ryan act of 1974. This act slowed down the cloak and dagger activities of the organization but never eliminated them.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#133

Post by sandisk5 »

HoopleHead wrote: post #105
mrslave wrote: post #85

In the interest of some context: Mandela was a communist and a terrorist. While a "political prisoner" he was offered freedom as soon as he would publicly renounce violent protest (i.e. terrorism) and he persistently refused to do so. His second wife, Winnie, enjoyed the necklacing opponents. So nice people all round.

I'm presuming you're an American, seeing as you seem to equate being a Communist with being a terrorist. Communism, as a political ideal, is a perfectly acceptable proposition. The fact that many oppressive regimes have declared themselves to be Communist states should not detract from that —any more than the equally evil actions of states which claim to be Democratic, should tarnish the ideals underpinning Democracy…

> I'm presuming you're an American, seeing as you seem to equate being a Communist with being a terrorist.

He said: Mandela was a communist and a terrorist. He's not saying what you're claiming.

Mandela was a terrorist because he was part of a terrorist organization that intentionally set off bombs in shopping malls and restaurants.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#134

Post by kangar00 »

arca_vorago wrote: post #131
kangar00 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> CIA's policy is probably controlled by someone else, and that's where changes need to be made because I like to think they don't come up with the stuff on their own. Beyond you liking to think that, what evidence do you have that the CIA's policy is controlled by anyone other than the CIA's Deputy Director who commands internal operations, and its Director, who reports to the director of National Intelligence as we…

I think you are completely wrong about this. There is plenty of evidence to indicate that "shadow groups" of varied interests that sometimes align and sometimes dont, are often pulling the strings of "public puppets". Your view, while common, (especially in the academic world where conspiracy is avoided like the plague) doesnt seem to reflect reality. The conspiratorial view of history is the correct one. Would you l…

> Would you like me to go into more detail?

Sure.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#135

Post by otterley »

merlin_g wrote: post #48
rubyfan wrote: post #2

Non-paywalled: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3591000/How-CIA-got-...

Why is everything behind a damn paywall these days?

Because well-written content and thorough investigation has to be paid for somehow. If it's worth reading, it's worth paying for IMHO. (I assume you do not work for free, either.)

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#136

Post by jdimov9 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #129
jdimov9 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what twisted mind is communism an acceptable proposition???

There isn't anything intrinsically wrong with communism as an ideal. All of its implementations, however, have been seriously lacking, and perhaps it is unviable in practice; this does not mean the concept is unacceptable in theory.

You are clearly incompetent about the subject. The "ideal" of communism and the practice of communism are not two different things. Communism is practiced precisely the way it is theoretically intended to work.

Communism is a cleptocratic system of ruling and exploiting the manual labour and natural resources of any given territory inhabited by unambitious masses that largely lack individualism. The core of the system relies on individualism and personal achievement being punished and forcefully suppressed, while the masses are continuously promised vague ideals of equality and justice (much like with any other system of government - nothing innovative here. ) There is nothing acceptable about communism - not in theory, not in practice, not in ideals - nothig.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#137

Post by sandisk5 »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #119
mrslave wrote: post #85

In the interest of some context: Mandela was a communist and a terrorist. While a "political prisoner" he was offered freedom as soon as he would publicly renounce violent protest (i.e. terrorism) and he persistently refused to do so. His second wife, Winnie, enjoyed the necklacing opponents. So nice people all round.

Of course the government of SA didn't have to renounce violence, which is the way they dealt with any resistance. Violence, torture, intimidation. Refusal to negotiate. Of course we don't call the Apartheid government "terrorists" for these crimes. He was not a communist, but an African nationalist. This is something he has always maintained and was confirmed when he became president, the national economic policy was…

> Of course we don't call the Apartheid government "terrorists" for these crimes.

Almost everyone agrees that the Apartheid government was horrible. Almost no one holds them up as a positive example.

Conversely, almost everyone holds Mandela and his terrorist organization up as an example and as a hero despite them intentionally setting off bombs in civilian locations like shopping malls and restaurants.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#138

Post by arethuza »

kmfrk wrote: post #30
Tharkun wrote: post #18

You know how we're still hunting down and jailing formers nazis and concentration camp guards? Why aren't we doing the same to these CIA agents and decision makers?

The US actually brought on a lot of nazis after WW2 to work with against the Soviets. American history is fun like that.

That wasn't unique to the US though - the Soviets also took ex-Nazi scientists to work for them as did the UK.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#139

Post by HaePhee8 »

vidarh wrote: post #56
equalsnil wrote: post #23

Would South Africa be a better place if it had become a Russian-influenced Communist country? If Mandela was a secret operative for the communists in South Africa, as the local communist party claimed when he died, and as this former CIA operative has claimed, then he had to have known he was playing a tricky game. Ending apartheid, creating a communist paradise, pick one. [Edit] I know I'm being downvoted, but I als…

> Would South Africa be a better place if it had become a Russian-influenced Communist country? If it had been, it would have been thanks to idiotic operations like this. There was no secret that there were tons of SACP members working within the ANC - they were in an explicit alliance with the ANC and COSATU (trade union alliance), and when the SACP forerunner - the CPSA - was outlawed with the introduction of apart…

Agreed - the pre-1994 ANC was clearly more complex than just being a puppet of the Soviet Union.

However, despite the CIA's (perhaps counter-productive) interference, it is a common misconception that the ANC's violent struggle forced the capitulation of the Apartheid government. I believe Mandela's arrest had little to nothing to do with how things played out. MK was outmatched by the government's security forces, and as long as the world wanted our gold, this could have continued indefinitely. It is tragic, but, those who gave their lives in the struggle did so only to maintain the threat of all-out civil war. Instead, what determined South Africa's future was the west's reluctant imposition of sanctions (not co-incidentally, just as the Soviet Union was falling apart).

I'm convinced that the end of Apartheid was negotiated between the nats and the West. The government knew that they were going to run out of money, in which case the ANC would become a real threat. The US first forced them to destroy their nuclear arsenal, and then the CODESAs followed as the public face of negotiation, but I suspect the actual terms of the transition was decided largely by world powers and the ANC was given instructions.

I sense a lot of outrage from Americans on this CIA/Mandela thing, but look at it this way: the US did eventually end Apartheid in a way that didn't create another Cuba, while simultaneously disarming bunch of white guys with nukes who were convinced that it was their God-given right to wield them.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#140

Post by cm2187 »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #109
cm2187 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Call me cynical, but I am not convinced that Israelis and Palestinians, Sunni and Shias, Kurds and Turkey, etc will suddenly make peace and start singing and dancing together as soon as we stop using oil.

No, it won't be an overnight change, but it's an important step towards peace in that region. People are willing to put aside their personal differences if it benefits them economically, but at the moment those economic forces are tearing them further apart.

Even in Palestine and Israel where there is no oil?
Post reply on HN