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A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

thetimes.co.uk

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Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#101

Post by dhd415 »

qznc wrote: post #50
Havoc wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>they would have called him a terrorist. Actually the ANC (or at least a splinter group) did bomb civilian locations in a terror campaign so yes it was considered a terrorist organisation. Now they're considered the liberators/bringers of democracy. Hows that for a pivot hn?

If terrorists win they are not called terrorists anymore. Compare the Boston Tea Party which started the war of independence.

The Boston Tea Party was most certainly not terrorism. No one was hurt or killed, either combatants or civilians. It cheapens the word to use it for any act of defiance against a government.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#102

Post by JanezStupar »

spriggan3 wrote: post #76
JanezStupar wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK Powell himself has been sceptical and deceived. That is why he eventually resigned after he realized he had been played.

I know, I don't blame that guy, he is a soldier, not a politician, and that's why they sent him to the UN, because people trust him.

Then perhaps you could have phrased your statement a bit better.

Powell was acting on good faith. His post-festum testimonials indicate that he was suspicious of the intel and had expressed his discomfort - to which he had been repeatedly re-assured by the people in charge of intel that intel was good.

Thus your claim that "Bush government was looking for any excuse" is wrong - as Powell himself has been a major part of Bush government.

Implying that Powell has been a victim of conspiracy is quite a bit of a conspiracy theory in itself. He might have been lied to due to corruption - or "just" due to incompetence.

What I am trying to argue here is - that somebody, somewhere should start an inquiry on how it was possible that Powell has been fed bad information. If there was a conspiracy - the perpetrators should be indicted for treason. If the reason is incompetence (which is a worse option IMO) - then a major overhaul of the intelligence agencies would be in order.

I do understand that the pragmatic option for numerous reasons has been to just "forget" about it - that may not be the best long term solution.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#103

Post by phire »

Strom wrote: post #32
raverbashing wrote: post #15

Well, sending him to jail helped make him an important figure. True, there's no way of knowing how it have gone otherwise Not to be demonized but not to be idolized as well

I'm curious, how did it help? I've always been under the impression that he succeeded despite the 27+ year prison time.

Being in prison isolated him from the less moral things the ANC did during the '70s and '80s, while still being seen as a figurehead.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#104

Post by cm2187 »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #60
benevol wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Osama Bin Laden told the US the reason for his fight (which is the origin of violent movements such as ISIS): American politics/interference in Muslim countries. Do you see the pattern?

One thing I find bizarre about 9/11 is that very few people seem to openly question why the World Trade Center was amongst the top targets that day. Perhaps if people looked a little deeper into what the WTO does it might help us make better decisions going forward. In the interest of balance, the situation on 9/11 wasn't completely the fault of the US. Saudi Arabia appears to have been the main driving force behind…

Call me cynical, but I am not convinced that Israelis and Palestinians, Sunni and Shias, Kurds and Turkey, etc will suddenly make peace and start singing and dancing together as soon as we stop using oil.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#105

Post by HoopleHead »

mrslave wrote: post #85

In the interest of some context: Mandela was a communist and a terrorist. While a "political prisoner" he was offered freedom as soon as he would publicly renounce violent protest (i.e. terrorism) and he persistently refused to do so. His second wife, Winnie, enjoyed the necklacing opponents. So nice people all round.

I'm presuming you're an American, seeing as you seem to equate being a Communist with being a terrorist. Communism, as a political ideal, is a perfectly acceptable proposition. The fact that many oppressive regimes have declared themselves to be Communist states should not detract from that —any more than the equally evil actions of states which claim to be Democratic, should tarnish the ideals underpinning Democracy.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#106

Post by ZenoArrow »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #99
TeMPOraL wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's the oil money that's fuelling the conflict on both sides, if we cut that out of the equation I'm confident we would find it much easier to work towards peace in the Middle East. I agree, though even if the US solved its energy problems today, we (i.e. the entire Western world) need to survive the generation or two of pretty angry Middle-Easterns seeking revenge for their destroyed homes and killed families, as…

> ... even if the US solved its energy problems today ... Observe: We kinda did, as far as geopolitics are concerned anyway (environmentalist concerns may obviously differ). US net imports of oil are approaching zero, and our neighbor Canada has plenty more. Here the Financial Times reports on projections that the US will be a net exporter by 2028, and maybe 2019 if the price shoots up: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f6dc…

I realise you were responding to a comment about US energy independence, and in that context your point is well made, but in the wider context the US is just one western country, there are plenty of other western countries that will continue to be customers of the Saudis and other countries in the Middle East without changing how they generate energy. US exports alone will not meet the worldwide demand for oil at current rates of consumption.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/us-will-not-surpass-saudi-arabi...

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#107

Post by [deleted] »

awinder wrote: post #94
hasenj wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did they "lose" Iraq? They successfully invaded the country, changed the regime, changed the military, the police, the government .. everything. Then they left. Iraq is in utter chaos, the US is doing just fine. How exactly did the US "lose" in Iraq?

Because the stated goal of that war was for the instilled government to survive and for democracy to transform the region. Not for the country to become destabilized with former military operatives to go into Syria and form the next great political catastrophe. That definitely wasn't a "win" long term.

[deleted]

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#108

Post by im3w1l »

benevol wrote: post #35
cm3 wrote: post #5

The CIA is the reason for most of the unstable regions and it's hard to understand how after messing with other places and making it worse for everybody but weapons manufacturers, they're still doing the same thing over and over. Previously it was the fight against Communism, now Islam, I wonder what it will be in 2020. Middle-east, Asia, South America, all are right to be very angry with the CIA, but turn it into a…

Osama Bin Laden told the US the reason for his fight (which is the origin of violent movements such as ISIS): American politics/interference in Muslim countries. Do you see the pattern?

ISIS is commiting genocide. They are killing and raping, and destroying monuments from eons ago.

Are you saying that these are acts of legitimate self defence??!!

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#109

Post by ZenoArrow »

cm2187 wrote: post #104
ZenoArrow wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I find bizarre about 9/11 is that very few people seem to openly question why the World Trade Center was amongst the top targets that day. Perhaps if people looked a little deeper into what the WTO does it might help us make better decisions going forward. In the interest of balance, the situation on 9/11 wasn't completely the fault of the US. Saudi Arabia appears to have been the main driving force behind…

Call me cynical, but I am not convinced that Israelis and Palestinians, Sunni and Shias, Kurds and Turkey, etc will suddenly make peace and start singing and dancing together as soon as we stop using oil.

No, it won't be an overnight change, but it's an important step towards peace in that region. People are willing to put aside their personal differences if it benefits them economically, but at the moment those economic forces are tearing them further apart.
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