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Hidden Microphones Part of Government Surveillance Program in the Bay Area

sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com

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Re: Hidden Microphones Part of Government Surveillance Program in the Bay Area

#121

Post by morganvachon »

bunkydoo wrote: post #111

If I really gave a damn, had 1000 bucks to blow, and had no life I could go plant hidden microphones, pinhole video cameras, and more in just about every conceivable public place too. If anyone argued or brought me to court - I could demonstrate how this is absolutely no different than everyone "secondhand recording" me in their little snap stories and instagrams which do go online forever. My point is, this is some…

> If Echelon were an independently operating AI system that had algorithms that identified criminal activity, then used soft paternalism in the form coercing unaware law enforcement personnel into making "chance" encounters with would-be criminals (random traffic stop, or passing them by on the street), the psychology of the criminal would be to stop doing whatever their doing because they feel more watched when they are doing said crime; although the law enforcement agent may never be directly aware of the criminals communications or conduct.

You just described the main antagonist ("Samaritan") in the show Person of Interest. It is a rogue AI that records everything, determines threat level, then "nudges" police and even private citizens to take action against what it sees as a threat (in this show, the protagonists trying to stop the evil organization using the neutral Samaritan for evil deeds). Samaritan itself isn't evil, but in the hands of tyrannical masters, it is a deadly weapon and nearly a god (omnipresent, omniscient and almost omnipotent).

This show has been riding the cutting edge of real life espionage and rogue government programs since it debuted.

Re: Hidden Microphones Part of Government Surveillance Program in the Bay Area

#122

Post by optforfon »

bunkydoo wrote: post #111

If I really gave a damn, had 1000 bucks to blow, and had no life I could go plant hidden microphones, pinhole video cameras, and more in just about every conceivable public place too. If anyone argued or brought me to court - I could demonstrate how this is absolutely no different than everyone "secondhand recording" me in their little snap stories and instagrams which do go online forever. My point is, this is some…

finally a voice a reason!

I actually think the tech world's outrage is the equivalent of survivalist doomsday paranoia. In their minds once the evil government people have our data it's just a slippery slope to fascism. (the survivalist at least have their guns! so they can go shoot cops that day)

Of course grounding yourself in reality you should realize that a 1984-dystopia-scifi government is effectively impossible in an advanced educated society. While people are mildly annoyed by databases (and that's why nothing gets done to stop them) - people have always been outraged when the government abuses those databases. Societies that are way further along in terms of mass surveillance (ex: Singapore) aren't on the verge of dystopia.

Re: Hidden Microphones Part of Government Surveillance Program in the Bay Area

#124

Post by RadioAndrea »

bitL wrote: post #97
imaginenore wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't have an expectation of privacy in public places. Facial recognition can be beat by a hat + sunglasses (which is the hugest plot hole in Person of Interest, the characters never even attempt to disguise themselves).

Your walking style identifies you better than face. Are you going to walk differently once you put a hat and sunglasses on?

In Cory Doctorow's book Little Brother, the protagonist defeats gait sensors with some pebbles in his shoe. It's really not such a bad idea, as every step is going to be different as your foot tries not to hit the pebble too hard.

Re: Hidden Microphones Part of Government Surveillance Program in the Bay Area

#125

Post by jflatow »

bunkydoo wrote: post #111

If I really gave a damn, had 1000 bucks to blow, and had no life I could go plant hidden microphones, pinhole video cameras, and more in just about every conceivable public place too. If anyone argued or brought me to court - I could demonstrate how this is absolutely no different than everyone "secondhand recording" me in their little snap stories and instagrams which do go online forever. My point is, this is some…

What makes you think you could do that?

Given your stance, I suppose you would be OK with censorship too, assuming it was monitored by a soft paternalistic AI intended only to 'protect' people?

Unfortunately we don't have any AI like what you described, and history has proven time and again that governments abuse powers like this to their own advantage.

Re: Hidden Microphones Part of Government Surveillance Program in the Bay Area

#126

Post by aidenn0 »

justifier wrote: post #123

huh? but ca and sf is two party consent? http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-632.html

In many cases federal law trumps state law. State law is likely to not be allowed to hinder a federal investigation. Typically the FBI isn't allowed to record conversations it isn't a party to without a warrant if you have a reasonable expectation of privacy. They are likely going to argue that there is no such expectation of privacy at a public bus stop.

Re: Hidden Microphones Part of Government Surveillance Program in the Bay Area

#127

Post by alva »

bunkydoo wrote: post #111

If I really gave a damn, had 1000 bucks to blow, and had no life I could go plant hidden microphones, pinhole video cameras, and more in just about every conceivable public place too. If anyone argued or brought me to court - I could demonstrate how this is absolutely no different than everyone "secondhand recording" me in their little snap stories and instagrams which do go online forever. My point is, this is some…

> My point is, this is some small potatoes 1980's style shit that is nothing compared to NSA Echelon

Absolutely. The "creep" factor of this however is more tangible to the general public so I imagine they will come under significantly more (relative to population size) pressure to answer for this.

Microphones hidden under rocks are much easier to understand and perceive as an intrusion and threat, compared to the nature of Echelon

Re: Hidden Microphones Part of Government Surveillance Program in the Bay Area

#128

Post by rayiner »

dmckeon wrote: post #64
rayiner wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I don't think the 4th amendment has much to say about surveillance. It protects four enumerated property rights: houses, persons, papers, and effects. If you have a property right in something, the government needs a warrant. If you don't, it doesn't. I don't think surveillance is good, but I'm strongly opposed to twisting the interpretation of the Constitution to fight in courts battles that should be fo…

I would put the emphasis on "private" rather than on "property" - if a house I rent contains a person and their papers or effects, they enjoy 4A protection even though I do not own the house, the person, or their papers or effects. A good intro to the US 4th amendment for anyone needing background details is at: https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fourth_amendment The key element in the Oakland FBI story seems to be the…

Renting confers an enforceable property right.

Re: Hidden Microphones Part of Government Surveillance Program in the Bay Area

#129

Post by meddlepal »

optforfon wrote: post #122
bunkydoo wrote: post #111

If I really gave a damn, had 1000 bucks to blow, and had no life I could go plant hidden microphones, pinhole video cameras, and more in just about every conceivable public place too. If anyone argued or brought me to court - I could demonstrate how this is absolutely no different than everyone "secondhand recording" me in their little snap stories and instagrams which do go online forever. My point is, this is some…

finally a voice a reason! I actually think the tech world's outrage is the equivalent of survivalist doomsday paranoia. In their minds once the evil government people have our data it's just a slippery slope to fascism. (the survivalist at least have their guns! so they can go shoot cops that day) Of course grounding yourself in reality you should realize that a 1984-dystopia-scifi government is effectively impossibl…

I think you're onto something there with that comparison to survalist doomsday scenarios. Some people have very vivid imaginations and they fail to see how there theory is basically impossible and then when challenged they fall back to some trope about slippery slopes.

Re: Hidden Microphones Part of Government Surveillance Program in the Bay Area

#130

Post by gopalv »

imaginenore wrote: post #114
bitL wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your walking style identifies you better than face. Are you going to walk differently once you put a hat and sunglasses on?

Do you have a database of walking styles? Does anybody? They definitely have access to most people's photos - driver's licenses, passports. I personally don't care if they know where I go in public. They can just tail me if they really want to know.

> Do you have a database of walking styles? Does anybody?

I nearly always walk around with a 3-d accelerometer which can indeed "phone" home.

Here's the ML extraction mechanism as explained by a Samsung engineer - http://www.slideshare.net/satnam74/the-fifth-elephant-2013-t...

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