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Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

nytimes.com

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Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#171

Post by stanmancan »

escape_plan wrote: post #169
stanmancan wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real close to Surrey actually, a few blocks from the border. Anywhere in the Lower Mainland is a really beautiful place to live, and lots to do outdoors if you're into that. Surrey had a bad reputation but it's mostly deserved. As usual, the vast majority of people are totally normal citizens, but there's plenty of gang violence. Last I read there had been 36 gang shootings in 2016 alone (Here's a map: http://bc.ctvn…

My wife spent 10 years in Surrey before moving in with me. We are thinking of moving to Canada, currently living in Bay Area, myself a developer for last 5+ years, earning decently but just tired of the Silicon-Valley rat race (commute, real-estate ownership and long term family settlement) and the weird systems here (immigration [being affected] + general political sentiment[long term, not currently affected]), and…

Both can be great cities and have different things to offer. I would try to visit both and see which one you enjoy more. TO is like a racial mixing pot, you get people from all over the world, so it has a pretty unique culture, but it's a pretty big city. Not a lot of outdoors, I didn't find people to be the friendliest. If you like living in a big city it might be worth it.

Vancouver is big, but more spread out. The downtown core isn't huge. It's in the Fraser Valley so it's beautiful pretty much no matter were you are. You have these bit mountains in the north and east. Not quite as multicultural, it's predominantly white/Asian(/Indian). I live in Delta which is a 35 minute drive from downtown with no traffic or closer to an hour wirh traffic. There is lots to do, especially if you like the outdoors.

Weather is pretty drastically different. TO has hot hot summers and cold cold winters. Expect a bit of snow but mostly it's just freaking cold. However, it's typically still nice sunny blue skies in the winter. Vancouvers winters are much more mild; we didn't get any snow last year where I live. It will get close to 0, but we play outdoor soccer year round so it's certainly bearable. Winters can feel long when it's just grey skies and rain though; part of living in a valley. Summer's are beautiful, hot and humid. Luckily there's no shortage is beaches and lakes to go cool down in.

Looking for anything in specific or does that help?

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#172

Post by tostitos1979 »

escape_plan wrote: post #169
stanmancan wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real close to Surrey actually, a few blocks from the border. Anywhere in the Lower Mainland is a really beautiful place to live, and lots to do outdoors if you're into that. Surrey had a bad reputation but it's mostly deserved. As usual, the vast majority of people are totally normal citizens, but there's plenty of gang violence. Last I read there had been 36 gang shootings in 2016 alone (Here's a map: http://bc.ctvn…

My wife spent 10 years in Surrey before moving in with me. We are thinking of moving to Canada, currently living in Bay Area, myself a developer for last 5+ years, earning decently but just tired of the Silicon-Valley rat race (commute, real-estate ownership and long term family settlement) and the weird systems here (immigration [being affected] + general political sentiment[long term, not currently affected]), and…

Are you guys Canadian citizens? If not, be aware the PR process is really slow (probably slower if you have to do a spousal sponsorship). The tax treaty between US and Canada makes the prospect of working in the US not that bad ... you need a good/expensive accountant to help you sort through the various complexities. Air Canada will make you suffer if you have to fly back for business meetings. If there is any way to avoid remote work, I'd suggest you take it. We had to do this for various reasons and it led to a lot of personal sacrifices and suffering.

In addition, I think Bay area real-estate is a far better deal than TO or YYZ real-estate. The key reason is that you can get a 20-30 year fixed mortgage in the US while you will you only get a 5 year in Canada. The -average- detached house in Toronto is 1.2 million bucks. Absolutely out of whack with incomes. In the Bay area, prices are high but so are incomes.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#173

Post by refurb »

thrownaway2424 wrote: post #153
refurb wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really that hard to figure out for some issues? Take gun control. Violent gun crimes are nearly non-existent in rural settings. Plus, gun plays an important role for rural folks including: hunting, pest control on farms, self-defense when the police are 30 minutes away, etc. Is it that surprising that rural folks say "Hey, that sucks you have a lot of gun crime, but why do I have to give something up that has v…

"Violent gun crimes are nearly non-existent in rural settings." This cannot be the basis of a rational policy, because it's false. Gun violence is much higher outside of cities. Please go to this site and set the stats to "Intent of injury: Violence-related" and "Mechanism of Injury: Firearm". https://wisqars.cdc.gov:8443/cdcMapFramework/mapModuleInterf...

How do I see the rural/urban split? It only has data at the state level.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#174

Post by AKrumbach »

nitrogen wrote: post #159
AKrumbach wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What makes progressive social policies (ignoring loaded issues like reproductive options and gun control) so distasteful to some of those who would most benefit? I'm not going to claim to answer for anybody but myself -- in large part because (a) I'm an urbanite too and (b) my politics can be least inaccurately described as "anarchist" -- but to me, this question really comes down to one point: respect/maturity. Mu…

I think this is why the only reasonable end-game for progressive ideas is a universal basic income. The point of positive social policy should be to lift everyone along the bottom/middle as much as possible while lowering the ceiling for the top as little as possible, and I believe that UBI, universal healthcare, and universal education will do that (increased taxes offset by increased social stability and economic g…

[Quotes reordered for clarity of response.]

> At least for me, the question is not, "...

Look, I'm sure progressives don't mean to sound patronizing when pushing for any of their pet programs -- however, the truth of the matter is you are no more able to dictate how people feel about what you say than you can the weight bearing capacity of a bridge or the speed of a computer program. [That is -- you can exert some control, but it's not done by directly writing the answer on the blueprints.]

I even read your original post in this thread as asking the right sort of question to exert that control: "When progressives put forth a program, what is it their opponents hear that seems distasteful?" and I gave you my answer to that question.

> I think this is why the only reasonable end-game for progressive ideas is ...

Just... stop right there. First off, I wasn't trying to address any sort of ivory tower, idealized "progressive ideas" -- yes, I'm sure there are academics who want something like universal income, healthcare, education, etc. I'm talking about the ones agitating in the streets for a $15 minimum wage, or the politicians who were willing to pass Obamacare instead of single-payer programs. In fact, I find it highly likely that such ideologues are ostracized even among left-leaning groups in the US, because that is not what is put forth by most progressive (Democrat) politicians.

Second, I don't really have any feelings one way or the other about those programs. Like the examples above, I don't think human beings have direct, final control over (or even enough knowledge to say in advance) what systems will or won't work. Instead, we need to attempt a great many different things -- yes, UBI among them -- to sort out which ideas are good or bad, because not all possible flaws are immediately obvious. [Remember in my last post how I said I'm 'nearly' an anarchist? This is most of what I meant -- making sure there's always room for experiments in governance, in order to reduce our ignorance about the mercurial nature of things.]

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#175

Post by escape_plan »

stanmancan wrote: post #171
escape_plan wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife spent 10 years in Surrey before moving in with me. We are thinking of moving to Canada, currently living in Bay Area, myself a developer for last 5+ years, earning decently but just tired of the Silicon-Valley rat race (commute, real-estate ownership and long term family settlement) and the weird systems here (immigration [being affected] + general political sentiment[long term, not currently affected]), and…

Both can be great cities and have different things to offer. I would try to visit both and see which one you enjoy more. TO is like a racial mixing pot, you get people from all over the world, so it has a pretty unique culture, but it's a pretty big city. Not a lot of outdoors, I didn't find people to be the friendliest. If you like living in a big city it might be worth it. Vancouver is big, but more spread out. The…

That's very good info, thanks a lot!!!. I am also thinking in terms of my wife's career because she has an economics degree and which city would be better for children to grow up in because we will be starting a family as well. I really appreciate the advice you gave. So do you go watch whitecaps games?

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#176

Post by escape_plan »

tostitos1979 wrote: post #172
escape_plan wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife spent 10 years in Surrey before moving in with me. We are thinking of moving to Canada, currently living in Bay Area, myself a developer for last 5+ years, earning decently but just tired of the Silicon-Valley rat race (commute, real-estate ownership and long term family settlement) and the weird systems here (immigration [being affected] + general political sentiment[long term, not currently affected]), and…

Are you guys Canadian citizens? If not, be aware the PR process is really slow (probably slower if you have to do a spousal sponsorship). The tax treaty between US and Canada makes the prospect of working in the US not that bad ... you need a good/expensive accountant to help you sort through the various complexities. Air Canada will make you suffer if you have to fly back for business meetings. If there is any way t…

My wife is citizen, and I still have a year and a half left on my H1, so can continue to work from Canada I think till I get my PR and then the switch can happen. The meetings are more or less Webex/Google Hangout like stuff, I don't expect to fly for frequent business meetings but more for being in sync with HQ.

I agree Bay area real-estate is better and so are the incomes high, but I think I will save on child-care and stuff as both me & my wife's parents can baby-sit and even though how much I like to live in Bay Area, the current immigration system is making me cringe as neither her nor my parents can stay here for more than 6 months, whereas the super-visa in Canada can help us start our family more easily.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#177

Post by thrownaway2424 »

refurb wrote: post #173
thrownaway2424 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Violent gun crimes are nearly non-existent in rural settings." This cannot be the basis of a rational policy, because it's false. Gun violence is much higher outside of cities. Please go to this site and set the stats to "Intent of injury: Violence-related" and "Mechanism of Injury: Firearm". https://wisqars.cdc.gov:8443/cdcMapFramework/mapModuleInterf...

How do I see the rural/urban split? It only has data at the state level.

On the top right side you can switch it to county-level data.

I wish this site had a reasonable way to make permalinks, then I would just paste it here.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#178

Post by nitrogen »

AKrumbach wrote: post #174
nitrogen wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is why the only reasonable end-game for progressive ideas is a universal basic income. The point of positive social policy should be to lift everyone along the bottom/middle as much as possible while lowering the ceiling for the top as little as possible, and I believe that UBI, universal healthcare, and universal education will do that (increased taxes offset by increased social stability and economic g…

[Quotes reordered for clarity of response.] > At least for me, the question is not, "... Look, I'm sure progressives don't mean to sound patronizing when pushing for any of their pet programs -- however, the truth of the matter is you are no more able to dictate how people feel about what you say than you can the weight bearing capacity of a bridge or the speed of a computer program. [That is -- you can exert some co…

Thanks for your response. I am trying to understand every step of the process that leads to the philosophical disconnect between different viewpoints, not just advocate for a specific cause (though I do have some causes in mind that I believe, at present, to be most beneficial to everyone). I'm trying to get myself and everyone else to play the long game, as it were -- to look beyond here, now, self, and party.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#179

Post by mason240 »

nitrogen wrote: post #160
mason240 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What makes progressive social policies (ignoring loaded issues like reproductive options and gun control) so distasteful to some of those who would most benefit? The unsupported assumption here is that those policies would be beneficial.

Let's look at a specific policy, then, such as a universal basic income (that means no means testing, no policing of morality, no step-wise dropoffs in benefit as income changes). Most of the working class would receive the same net income, or more. There would be no more income-driven involuntary homelessness. There would be less incentive to avoid working part time because UBI benefits would still be paid. The UBI…

UBI isn't a policy being discussed by anyone in the mainstream, most people wouldn't even know what it is.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#180

Post by monknomo »

tostitos1979 wrote: post #147
monknomo wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the end of your 40 year career, with your numbers, not accounting for inflation, raises or the potential for investing, you would have $1.14 million in cash and $740k in 401k principal. At the end of most people's career they have social security... I'd call it pretty well off for having done nothing with the money. Retire to Nebraska, live like a king.

Too bad I'm in my late 30s. Education cost a lot of time, money, and made me delay purchasing a house until it was too late.

My scenario does not involve a house purchase until you are 60 and can move somewhere where houses are essentially free, like Phoenix or Omaha, or Buffalo or wherever.

I guess, tldr; don't give up hope, consider what you are gunning for and remember everywhere but the coasts is dirt cheap.

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