Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking • Hacker News Board

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#11

Post by [deleted] » Fri, May 13, 2016, 3:37 PM UTC

beachstartup wrote: post #2

i'm not sure $125k/year for a family of 3 should really be considered 'upper class'. is 2 working parents barely making 60k each really upper class? i would like to see these numbers for 4x or 5x the median (roughly $250k/year). to me that's really where the delta in income starts to become apparent as manifested in lifestyle choices and accumulated wealth. edit: okay, reading the actual research reveals that pew cal…

[deleted]

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#12

Post by beachstartup » Fri, May 13, 2016, 3:38 PM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #3

beachstartup wrote: post #2

i'm not sure $125k/year for a family of 3 should really be considered 'upper class'. is 2 working parents barely making 60k each really upper class? i would like to see these numbers for 4x or 5x the median (roughly $250k/year). to me that's really where the delta in income starts to become apparent as manifested in lifestyle choices and accumulated wealth. edit: okay, reading the actual research reveals that pew cal…

I don't think the specific number matters too much. As long as the number was consistent in the survey, the point is made.

i think it matters a lot. every few thousand you move that line in either direction is going to make a large direct impact on the apparent 'growth' or 'decline' on either side of it.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#13

Post by bhouston » Fri, May 13, 2016, 3:41 PM UTC

nxzero wrote: post #8

Anyone able to offer an explaination of why having a large middle class is viewed as positive? For example, say large population was happy, educated, healthy, etc. - why does it matter what the class distribution is?

Very often once things divide into the rich and the poor, there is decreased mobility and often the divide is along ethnic lines. This increases tensions and reduces social cohesion. The rich actually stop caring about the lower classes and then either they deny rights to the lower class (e.g. dictatorship, occupation, etc.) or the lower class elects people who take away richness from the upper class (e.g. socialism, revolution, etc.) -- either way it is a mess once the divide becomes entrenched and social cohesion breaks down.

One book that covers this well is World on Fire: https://www.amazon.ca/World-Fire-Exporting-Democracy-Instabi...

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#14

Post by wturner » Fri, May 13, 2016, 3:43 PM UTC

nxzero wrote: post #8

Anyone able to offer an explaination of why having a large middle class is viewed as positive? For example, say large population was happy, educated, healthy, etc. - why does it matter what the class distribution is?

If people are happy and healthy being slaves or doing slave labor ( or just complacent ) it doesn't matter. The problem is if they revolt and kill those responsible. The goal from a completely Machiavellian perspective is social order.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#15

Post by cauterized » Fri, May 13, 2016, 3:44 PM UTC

nxzero wrote: post #8

Anyone able to offer an explaination of why having a large middle class is viewed as positive? For example, say large population was happy, educated, healthy, etc. - why does it matter what the class distribution is?

Democracies tend to function better with a large middle class that's well educated and has economic clout than it does with a small, powerful moneyed elite and a huge underclass that's struggling just to survive and has no time or mental energy to spare paying attention to politics.

Additionally, the discretionary spending of middle class households helps fuel the economy.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#16

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, May 13, 2016, 3:45 PM UTC

The article makes the extremely common media error (which is also present in the source research, or at least the press release from Pew announcing it -- the article uses "class" pretty exclusively, the Pew release uses "class" in the headline and much of the body, but also uses "income tier" in some places) of conflating income (which is simply a measure of the amount of money received per year) with class (which is a descriptor of how one relates to society and the economic system.)

What it actually is addressing is particular local areas where the share of the local population in a particular definition of the national "middle" of the income distribution is declining. (Well, actually, the article indicates that, but somewhat misrepresents the source research [0], which indicates that the locality-based analysis includes adjustments for local cost of living, so the definitions stated in the NYT article aren't actually what the graphics are based on.)

(Much of that so-called "middle class" income group would be working class by the conventional definitions used in looking at capitalist/mixed economies, and the middle class would extend well into what that study calls the "upper class" -- the traditional lower/working, middle, and upper/capitalist classes are not defined with the middle being around the median wealth or income, but by the middle being neither completely dependent on wage labor and immediately at risk from its loss like the lower/working class nor primarily relying on renting others labor to apply to their own capital, like the upper/capitalist class; the middle class has always been almost entirely in the upper half of the income distribution.)

[0] http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2016/05/11/americas-shrinking...

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#17

Post by antidaily » Fri, May 13, 2016, 3:47 PM UTC

nxzero wrote: post #8

Anyone able to offer an explaination of why having a large middle class is viewed as positive? For example, say large population was happy, educated, healthy, etc. - why does it matter what the class distribution is?

Can't be great for tax base. Thats one thought.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#18

Post by nugget » Fri, May 13, 2016, 3:47 PM UTC

I used to think that science fiction's popular predictions of a dominant, out of touch urban ruling class casually oppressing subsistence level, serf-like rural populations was just a dystopian fantasy. But the older I get and the more I think about the future and human nature the more I think that may be the way we are headed.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#19

Post by bluthru » Fri, May 13, 2016, 3:47 PM UTC

nxzero wrote: post #8

Anyone able to offer an explaination of why having a large middle class is viewed as positive? For example, say large population was happy, educated, healthy, etc. - why does it matter what the class distribution is?

It's true that wealth is not zero sum, but many of the things that wealth buy are zero sum.

Political influence, time, land, attractiveness, power, etc. are all about sorting you relative to others. No matter how much new "wealth" there is, everyone can't have the same lobbying influence and live in Manhattan.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#20

Post by carleverett » Fri, May 13, 2016, 3:47 PM UTC

nxzero wrote: post #8

Anyone able to offer an explaination of why having a large middle class is viewed as positive? For example, say large population was happy, educated, healthy, etc. - why does it matter what the class distribution is?

Smaller middle class = higher income inequality. Generally this means a larger population of unhappy, uneducated, and unhealthy people.