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Ask HN: How many of you have to log hours?

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Ask HN: How many of you have to log hours?

#1
Hi

I am a programmer and in my job I need to log all my hours against tasks in Jira, and submit that did the 40h.

Sometimes I don't like it because something takes longer than it should then I get pulled up on it. Sometimes the reason is I had a bad day couldn't concentrate etc. But it isn't good to say that so I need to invent an excuse.

My last job was similar and I really dislike it because it can only be bad for the programmer. Especially given how hard it is to estimate stuff.

Btw this is product dev work not billed out to client work. Those jobs I purposely avoid.

Re: Ask HN: How many of you have to log hours?

#2
Had to do it in one place - everyone hated it as far as I know. Small tasks / actions started getting pulled into "misc" task. I think I put some hours as "thinking". Having a desktop tracker where you can just put the task name without much thinking distraction and then start/stop it, was helpful.

What I learned from this experience: the data either was not used or nothing noticeable changed because of it, it made people angry, it wasn't even close to accurate. Now it's one of the questions I'd ask at the interview (red flags: task time tracking, no source control, no testing, no qa plan, too many managers per project, tech choices are political not from engineering, ...)

Re: Ask HN: How many of you have to log hours?

#3
I tried to do this, in jira, when I first started at my last company, and was told not to.

It takes time to do programming work. Sometimes you need a good think. Sometimes meetings distract you. And even off hours, I'm often thinking about how to do stuff. A problem at work, I might set aside, have a good night, and wake up in the morning with a solution.

Anyway this sounds like poor management. I don't have a really great answer on that.

Re: Ask HN: How many of you have to log hours?

#5
In my experience only incompetent managers ask you to account for your hours for anything other than hourly billed client work.

The best projects I've worked on had:

* A manager who was technically literate.

* The tasks were documented and specified clearly.

* The project plan was prepared by a knowledgeable planner and thus realistic.

* Our weekly progress meeting focused on addressing the delay causing stumbling blocks.

My days as an employee are over. As a consultant, I bill for the completion of specific deliverables. I simply decline business from potential clients who demand an hourly rate. I just can't be bothered doing time-sheets and justifying why something took more time than planned. Occasionally I do underestimate the amount of effort a deliverable requires. That's the cost of doing business on my terms.

Re: Ask HN: How many of you have to log hours?

#6
post #2

Had to do it in one place - everyone hated it as far as I know. Small tasks / actions started getting pulled into "misc" task. I think I put some hours as "thinking". Having a desktop tracker where you can just put the task name without much thinking distraction and then start/stop it, was helpful. What I learned from this experience: the data either was not used or nothing noticeable changed because of it, it made p…

GIGO (garbage in, garbage out) applies to time tracking as well. Couple of places I've worked, we would put inflated time against "meetings" to spite the management.

Re: Ask HN: How many of you have to log hours?

#7
I find this interesting... I may not compare easily as a contractor but at every job for the last 6 years as a contractor I have logged sometimes two and in one occasion three timesheets every day.

it does not bother me, in fact sometimes it helps me realize I might be getting burnt, when i see the numbers go too far up, I see it as a barometer.

Re: Ask HN: How many of you have to log hours?

#8
This happened for a short while at an old workplace that had an extremely toxic environment, this didn't improve the environment. People were expected to clock in/out when they arrived as well as for lunch and breaks. Developers were salaried not hourly. I suggest leaving as fast as you can, asking to have tasks add up to 40h a week of work shows a fundamental misunderstanding of development by management.

Re: Ask HN: How many of you have to log hours?

#9
I had to do it with one client. My philosophy is one of automation and never doing something twice - the less hours the client needs per unit work done, the better - and the philosophy of some of their managers was the opposite, that you didn't get what you paid for unless people sweated for it. In other words, they incentivised their own workforce and consultants not to automate anything.

So I made a read-only log, shared it with them, and started writing down everything I was doing to make their products. It ended up being really interesting as I never really analysed my development process, all the false tracks you go down for a while before reverting, all the data format changes, type errors you meet, avoiding repetition, documentation, flashes of inspiration, or how waiting for a query to complete breaks your flow... and I think they got a better idea of what is involved in producing stuff (no, it's not "just updating a few graphs" if you went and changed all the definitions and they come from 7 distinct data sources).

A side effect is that they got precisely the hours they paid for.

With other clients, I routinely used to put in a weekend or late nights if things didn't quite work, or if I had an idea for an interesting product that could be helpful to them. With these guys, it was "this is probably going to take me 10 hours. Can you approve these hours?" and 2 weeks later they'd say "OK" and I'd get started only then. They were so hours-driven that when I passed them a new product I did do in my spare time, they refused to even have a meeting to look at it in fear of having to pay for more hours. Quite amazing.

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