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Moxie Marlinspike Makes Encryption for Everyone

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Re: Moxie Marlinspike Makes Encryption for Everyone

#131
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're missing some information here. The supplied link says that the applications have been renamed due to legal threats. This seems completely reasonable to me. The names of the apps are trademarks and for a security product, who builds it is important to the integrity of the mark. I'm trying to remember how Android works, but I seem to recall that you need to sign the packages differently on Play and Fdroid…

MM actually does go into a lot of detail (at least the first dozen times he was asked), and it's quite reasonable.

Thanks. Yes, someone else posted a better link with the rationale. Essentially he wants the user experience for the average person to have auto-upgrade so that he can fix bugs, etc reliably. For those that have more tech experience and can judge whether or not they should upgrade, they can build their own very easily.

Since he signs it with his own key, nobody can force an auto-upgrade except him. So you either have to trust him for this version and all future versions, or not trust him and build your own. You can package and sign your own version, but apparently (I haven't actually seen the reported twitter comments) he doesn't want you to name them the same (which is clearly a reasonable trademark issue since any build not signed by him could contain anything).

I personally don't have a problem with that and it certainly isn't a GPL violation.

Re: Moxie Marlinspike Makes Encryption for Everyone

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At issue further up the thread was whether insisting on using Google Play to distribute Signal for security reasons was sound logic, right? Forgive me if I missed the point but I thought that's what we were debating. That's why I provided the specific example above which showed malware distributed via the Google Play store. this advanced my position that an app insisting on distribution via Google Play store exclusiv…

> At issue further up the thread was whether insisting on using Google Play to distribute Signal for security reasons was sound logic, right? No. The assertion was that Moxie only wished to distributed on the Google Play store. I addressed this complaint. From my first comment in this sub-thread: >> He only wants distribution via Google... > Untrue. He only wants distribution through channels that provide the same se…

Verbal sparring is nothing to be afraid of or to shy away from, we're adults and are staying within the guidelines here. It is known for the frequent use of metaphor. Examples of this can be found up-thread in, well, your rather colorful comments about severed limbs and heads popping off! Amusing yes, but not convincing. But not amusing enough to revisit months later - better and healthier to let it go and move on, thanks.

I've provided numerous facts and backed them up with links to sources. That is a substantial transfer of information which you didn't acknowledge. What does all that great security you describe mean for all those people not getting updates? It is a real problem.

You go on to say "That is to say, unless you purposely go very far out of your way to install custom system software that deliberately weakens critical Android security features -thus putting your Android device pretty squarely in the realm of PC-level security-, then there is no software in the Play Store that will take over your Android device." The Viking Horde malware is bad enough with the ads popping up and dangerous links appearing, whether this is 'safely' sandboxed on a vanilla install or completely taking over a rooted devices is of little significance to me. I don't want ANY of it.

I'd like a secure messaging app that can be installed on a more hardened version of Android like CopperheadOS, which does not require the constant 'phoning home' to Google that most Android phones do. Remote install capability via Google Play is huge red flag and a deal breaker for me, but I understand Moxie intends to target more mainstream users and has to make compromises to serve them.

A fair number of Android users like me are more concerned about the mass surveillance practices of advertisers such as Google than we are about the full-on 'tinfoil hat' NSA stuff. I don't like either, but the corporations are more worrying because they're attracting the better workforce with their higher pay and as a result are more effective. We want Signal to protect us from Google, not the NSA.

What initially made me post my first reply to your initial comment was that I saw it was attracting down-votes and I thought you put some effort into it and made some sound points, so I upvoted and replied. This thread has probably run it's course at this point by my email is in my profile if you have anything else to add.

Re: Moxie Marlinspike Makes Encryption for Everyone

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not on Apple's app store.

File a bug report. The store is clearly broken as GPLed code has no impact on the store selling the app. Apple clearly doesn't understand Copyright law. (or, are trying to poison their competitors with unfair business practices...)

This is not a bug. It is working as designed. AppStore wants to put more restrictions on the user about what they can do with the app. This is incompatible with the GPL.

Re: Moxie Marlinspike Makes Encryption for Everyone

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He decided not to. That's completely his right. He doesn't go into a lot of detail about why he has decided this, but it's completely up to him. He doesn't like how F-Droid uses centralized signing keys which are stored online: https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Android/issues/127#...

Except that they aren't. Read the responses in that thread from the actual FDroid devs.

Except they are. The F-Droid devs kept claiming they weren't. Moxie asked them to describe the system and surprise, surprise the keys are stored on a machine that is connected to a network that is connected to the internet. It turned out that the F-Droid devs didn't/don't understand the concept of stored offline vs online.

Response from actual FDroid dev:

> It's connected to the network, yes

Re: Moxie Marlinspike Makes Encryption for Everyone

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't mind me asking, what career are you switching from and to? I'm about to graduate but I'm not looking forward to any of my default career options. I'd be curious to hear about your experience and plans.

I'm about to graduate from medical school in a few months. Once I get my medical degree, I'm going for an undergraduate degree in Computer Science. I've always wanted to do computer science since high school but I equally wanted to become a doctor. At one point I decided being a doctor was more important. I valued autonomy highly and I figured nothing is better than the freedom to operate my own small private practic…

This was very interesting and insightful to read, thanks!

Re: Moxie Marlinspike Makes Encryption for Everyone

#136
post #115
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the assumption is that any sufficiently motivated attacker will find a way to compromise their target. What e2e encryption accomplishes is the end of dragnet surveillance of entire societies, something that Snowden has exposed in great detail already.

But my point is that the way end-to-end encryption is implemented currently doesn't even accomplish that: Either you trust your messenger provider not to be complicit in any surveillance or data mining activities, then plain TLS (with key-pinning) is enough to save you from being snooped - or you don't trust them, then you're not actually protected as they could push an update at any time to sidestep the encryption.…

It's not perfect, but E2E crypto does make it significantly harder to get to the plaintext. A backdoor will always leave some kind of paper trail (if you know what to look for), whereas intercepting the plaintext on the server cannot be detected by users at all. Legally speaking, compelling a company to intercept messages that they have access to sounds different than compelling them to develop and sign a backdoored version of their product - that's essentially the Apple vs. FBI case.

I think this is a case of perfect being the enemy of good. If a state actor wants access to your messages, you're probably screwed anyway, unless your OpSec is top-notch. E2E crypto means that they'll have to really want your messages, at which point they're probably better off just stealing your phone or using a $5 wrench.

Re: Moxie Marlinspike Makes Encryption for Everyone

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At issue further up the thread was whether insisting on using Google Play to distribute Signal for security reasons was sound logic, right? No. The assertion was that Moxie only wished to distributed on the Google Play store. I addressed this complaint. From my first comment in this sub-thread: >> He only wants distribution via Google... > Untrue. He only wants distribution through channels that provide the same se…

Verbal sparring is nothing to be afraid of or to shy away from, we're adults and are staying within the guidelines here. It is known for the frequent use of metaphor. Examples of this can be found up-thread in, well, your rather colorful comments about severed limbs and heads popping off! Amusing yes, but not convincing. But not amusing enough to revisit months later - better and healthier to let it go and move on, t…

> The Viking Horde malware is bad enough... whether this is 'safely' sandboxed on a vanilla install or completely taking over a rooted devices is of little significance to me. I don't want ANY of it.

It sounds like you'd rather be using something more appliance-like like an iDevice. Their sandboxes are substantially more strict, and their permission system is actually more fine-grained than what you find on Android. OTOH, you can do far fewer interesting things on an iDevice than an Android device. That's the Security vs. Convenience tradeoff at work.

Anyway. This has no bearing on the fact that the infrastructure and services provided by Google through the Play Store are rather good and competently managed. It certainly has no bearing on the fact that distributing software through the Play Store is substantially safer and more secure than either distributing through a Market that has devastatingly poor code signing key management practices, or -even worse- demanding that your users download and install unsigned software hosted on arbitrary sites on the internet.

The truth of the matter is that distribution through the Play Store and the App Store is absolutely the safest and most secure way to distribute software to Android and iOS devices.

> I've provided numerous facts and backed them up with links to sources.

And by and large your "facts" come from antivirus vendors attempting to drum up sales of their now-pointless-on-the-fastest-growing-sector-of-the-computer-business virus scanning software by making mountains out of teaspoonfuls of dirt.

> What does all that great security you describe mean for all those people not getting updates?

You never actually investigated whether or not Google's split of core functionality into Google Play Services largely mitigated the security impact of laggard phone manufacturers. The answer might surprise you!

> A fair number of Android users like me are more concerned about the mass surveillance practices of advertisers such as Google...

Then, uh, why are you running an OS that's authored by Google? There's a saying: "If you don't trust the vendor of your OS, then you can't trust the computer that's running it.". By definition, the author of your OS has root privileges on any device that that OS runs on.

> We want Signal to protect us from Google, not the NSA.

Signal absolutely does not protect your conversations with others if a malicious party gains root on the device on which it runs. If you don't trust Google, then running Signal on Android is absolutely the worst thing you could possibly do. Seriously dwell on that for a while.

> Remote install capability via Google Play is huge red flag...

See above. Also, because Google does not have a copy of the signing key for Android apps that it doesn't author, it is impossible for Google to install rogue versions of apps that it didn't author. [0] When F-Droid was distributing their own copy of Signal, F-Droid used the same code signing key for all apps. This meant that they (or anyone who snatched the key) could push unauthorized updates to any software on the F-Droid repo.

> ...I understand Moxie intends to target more mainstream users and has to make compromises to serve them.

Heh. You haven't understood anything Moxie has said about why Signal is currently distributed exclusively through the Play Store, have you? :(

[0] Of course, you may not believe that if you don't trust Android's app signature verification code.

Re: Moxie Marlinspike Makes Encryption for Everyone

#138
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm about to graduate from medical school in a few months. Once I get my medical degree, I'm going for an undergraduate degree in Computer Science. I've always wanted to do computer science since high school but I equally wanted to become a doctor. At one point I decided being a doctor was more important. I valued autonomy highly and I figured nothing is better than the freedom to operate my own small private practic…

This was very interesting and insightful to read, thanks!

You're welcome :)

Re: Moxie Marlinspike Makes Encryption for Everyone

#139
post #44

I've respected Moxie Marlinspike ever since he made sslstrip, a simple illustration of the fundamental insecurity of browser-based HTTPS. However I do question his premise that criminals already have the wherewithal to opt in to "clunky" strong encryption before engaging in criminal activity. In fact there are many scenarios where criminals simply go with the default security configuration in consumer devices, either…

or (c) they don't have to care about it.

"security by obscurity" might proves as being good enough. I could write you a text message: "Hey abalone, do you fancy helping me planting a tree over at my garden?" and it seems perfectly innocent until you consider that planting a tree could be a code for all sort of things. As long as you don't "plant trees" every week and talk about all kind of things in your text messages you are not attracting attention.

One could argue that truly innocent/law abiding people require strong encryption the most because of all the criminals out there.

Re: Moxie Marlinspike Makes Encryption for Everyone

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

File a bug report. The store is clearly broken as GPLed code has no impact on the store selling the app. Apple clearly doesn't understand Copyright law. (or, are trying to poison their competitors with unfair business practices...)

This is not a bug. It is working as designed. AppStore wants to put more restrictions on the user about what they can do with the app. This is incompatible with the GPL.

There's nothing the GPL requires that should be a problem for an app store. It's a bug.
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