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It’s a Tough Job Market for the Young Without College Degrees

nytimes.com

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Re: It’s a Tough Job Market for the Young Without College Degrees

#81

Post by gozur88 »

bpchaps wrote: post #31

In interviews, the second most common question I get asked is, "Why don't you have a degree?" followed by "Are you planning on going back?". More than often, the questions have a strong No True Scotsman feeling to them. My experience is solid and my personal projects are fun and reflect passion. Yet, not having a degree is a detriment to me somehow still. Why? I can't think of a single good reason why so many employe…

>Yet, not having a degree is a detriment to me somehow still. Why? I can't think of a single good reason why so many employers would think that way.

Since employers can't give IQ tests any more, they have come to rely on your college alma mater as a proxy for an IQ test. If you don't go to college, they don't know how you fit in with other candidates.

Yes, college has become a $100k+ IQ test.

Re: It’s a Tough Job Market for the Young Without College Degrees

#82

Post by azurelogic »

alistproducer2 wrote: post #63

A college degree is the new high school degree. You pretty much top out in the upper teens per hour without a degree: and that's if you're lucky. I've been on both sides. Since getting my undergrads in Comp Sci and MIS I make more money than I ever thought I would. Before this I got a job driving buses for the city making ~$10.50/hr and I thought that was all the money in the world.

This isn't entirely true. People have been making good money for ages in specialized trades (electricians, plumbers, etc). However, it's arguable that their apprenticeship is equivalent to a degree. In addition, there are plenty of people in technical fields who manage to make up for education with self-teaching and real world experience. This probably becomes an obstacle when applying for jobs through automated HR systems, but I've noticed that those aren't nearly as useful as networking and knowing people anyway.

Re: It’s a Tough Job Market for the Young Without College Degrees

#83

Post by some-guy »

askyourmother wrote: post #73
some-guy wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same boat here. High school dropout, semi-professional musician / food-service worker, then got my CS degree at age 27. Being on both sides is interesting, and in some ways I'm thankful I lived off a low without even a high school degree just for the life experience. I still ride the same bicycle, drive the same car, etc. I try not to forget how much a dollar is worth but it can be hard sometimes. My life back then w…

Surely flipping burgers is a step up from Java coding? Asking if they want fries with that is better than having to endure the shit-fest of eclipse, and the horrors of Java development

I'm lucky enough to love the people I work with, have a consistent 40-hour work week, and get paid a decent wage. It's GWT development so it's a mixture of Java / Javascript / Sass.

And yes I use IntelliJ which makes Java very very bearable.

Re: It’s a Tough Job Market for the Young Without College Degrees

#84

Post by Alupis »

Retric wrote: post #64
Alupis wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not all of these people are capable of being even minimally productive IQ is a horrible indicator, and while influenced by genes, it is also biased by a number of factors, including upbringing environment. As the son of a teacher, I refuse to accept the notion that our "dumbest" folks aren't capable of learning great things. It's attitudes like the one you're presenting that keep these folks down in the dirt. "They…

Even the Army has long held minimum standards for mental capabilities. This is backed up by a lot of research. I am also a son of a teacher, but that's very different than an actual teacher. I can't picture using that to try and argue from authority. Especially when the lowest end of the scale is segregated from everyone else. Though, I guess wallowing in your ignorance is par for the course.

> I guess wallowing in your ignorance is par for the course

I don't know why you choose to be so hostile? It's a bit condescending, and your position is not any more correct than I.

> Even the Army has long held minimum standards for mental capabilities. This is backed up by a lot of research

And the same was said about women serving in combat roles... until recently.

I also happen to come from a military family, and can attest to the bar being very, very low regarding mental capabilities. I grew up around these folks. It's actually who the military seeks for low rank positions - not independent thinkers, they want compliance without question. You don't get that with highly educated individuals. I know this is anecdotal, but it does have value.

Change your outlook, because it's awful. Having zero faith in people's abilities to rise to meet new challenges is odd, to say the least. You seem content to keep people poor, dumb, and useless. A new economy requires higher level of skills and thought. The time to start brewing that ecosystem is now, not later.

Re: It’s a Tough Job Market for the Young Without College Degrees

#85

Post by knieveltech »

jdminhbg wrote: post #30
dugditches wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you could walk off the street(with no Highschool diploma) into a Manufacturing job with good pay, benefits, etc. And if they mistreated you, you could leave and go to another Factory in-town that did treat you well. So they tried to retain employees by treating them well. Versus today, where if you can manage to find a Manufacturing job you're under the thumb of the bosses. Because they know you have a mortgage,…

> When you could walk off the street(with no Highschool diploma) into a Manufacturing job with good pay, benefits, etc. This sounds more like a good-ole-days fantasy than reality. Can you quantify when and what good pay and benefits were for someone without a high school degree who walked off the street?

I can speak to this. In the early 90's you could walk into an Ironworker's union hall with a GED and be hired as a pre-apprentice with no prior experience in structural ironwork or fabrication for the princely sum of $8.50 an hour (almost double minimum wage). Day 1 you had health insurance and scheduled OJT to step up to apprentice, any work over 8 hours in a day was time and a half. Any work over 40 hours a week was time and a half. Hollidays and Sundays paid double. Guaranteed sick leave. Guaranteed breaks & lunch. Union hall handled 100% of your HR-related nonsense and also filled the role of recruiter to keep you working. If you wanted to travel they'd get you assigned to short term projects in around the country. If you wanted to stay home they'd look for a long term position for you at a local firm. I'm a little hazy on the exact timeline of events but at some point between getting your book and going Journeyman you started contributing to the union pension fund and monies were set aside for a retirement annuity.

TL;DR: GED = double minimum wage, paid OJT, full medical/dental/vision insurance, retirement, annuity, and job placement services from day 1 in the door.

Re: It’s a Tough Job Market for the Young Without College Degrees

#86

Post by [deleted] »

knieveltech wrote: post #20
Alupis wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should do away with it and replace it with basic income So instead of encouraging (or mandating?) young folks get trained or educated (or both!), we simply give them money for existing? I don't see how that solves the bigger issue. We, as a society, are very good at band-aid solutions (like minimum wage from the get-go). We're not good at solving the real hard problems. The real hard problem here is folks are ge…

There simply aren't enough jobs to go around and automation is wiping out entire career tracks faster than they could possibly be replaced. Example: in the area I grew up in if you weren't headed off to college and didn't want to join the military you always had the option of working on a pulp wood crew. The work was back-breaking, the pay wasn't great, but you could get by and turnover was so high that if you stuck…

[deleted]

Re: It’s a Tough Job Market for the Young Without College Degrees

#87

Post by lexhaynes »

slackstation wrote: post #46
Alupis wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should do away with it and replace it with basic income So instead of encouraging (or mandating?) young folks get trained or educated (or both!), we simply give them money for existing? I don't see how that solves the bigger issue. We, as a society, are very good at band-aid solutions (like minimum wage from the get-go). We're not good at solving the real hard problems. The real hard problem here is folks are ge…

The real meta problem is that if you don't work, you don't eat. Who cares if they have a job or they just sit at home and play videogames. Basic Income would allow people the freedom to pursue the things that truly interest them. It will be a golden era of video games and movies and art. A huge percentage of the population will be only concerned with pleasure. Overall, we produce more with less labor and robotic auto…

Where would the money for Basic Income come from?

Re: It’s a Tough Job Market for the Young Without College Degrees

#88

Post by michaelbuddy »

gozur88 wrote: post #81
bpchaps wrote: post #31

In interviews, the second most common question I get asked is, "Why don't you have a degree?" followed by "Are you planning on going back?". More than often, the questions have a strong No True Scotsman feeling to them. My experience is solid and my personal projects are fun and reflect passion. Yet, not having a degree is a detriment to me somehow still. Why? I can't think of a single good reason why so many employe…

>Yet, not having a degree is a detriment to me somehow still. Why? I can't think of a single good reason why so many employers would think that way. Since employers can't give IQ tests any more, they have come to rely on your college alma mater as a proxy for an IQ test. If you don't go to college, they don't know how you fit in with other candidates. Yes, college has become a $100k+ IQ test.

Employers will learn soon enough that the best and brightest in IT think actually think critically and know that university education is a negative, and probably will be for at least the next 5 years to a decade. Tech schools and accomplishments are where it's at.

Re: It’s a Tough Job Market for the Young Without College Degrees

#89

Post by imtringued »

imron wrote: post #56
douche wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're rapidly approaching the point where the utility of an untrained, low-skill worker is less than the cost of technology to replace them. Self-service checkout lines for retail are already an improvement - how long until fast-food restaurants simply turn around the POS systems at the counter, and you have Siri or Cortana taking your order at the drive-through? The floor for employability is getting higher, and I'm…

> Self-service checkout lines for retail are already an improvement For some, but not for others. There are plenty of people who prefer manned checkout counters.

Current self service checkouts are far from what they should be. Ideally we'd have an rfid gate which you pass through that scans all the items in your cart without scanning them manually.
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