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Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#571

Post by wernercd »

nerd-fight wrote: post #420
wernercd wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this was "after hours" between two adults? Was it a couple comments, that got rebuffed (You think I'm cute? Thank you, but I'm not interested) and was then dropped? Was it repeated comments that continued after "she" said no? I wouldn't use those terms with someone at work, during working hours... I wouldn't think it's earth ending to compliment someone after hours, outside of the work place (The terminology is a…

Hitting on a fellow employee after work hours with a tinder-esque technique is grounds for termination. The female employee has little recourse to stop the advance, and has not approved it. Workplace courtship protocol requires slow, deliberate advancement with explicit ACKs from the receiver.

Again, it depends. You can't just immediately go all scorched earth "You said she's cute? You're fired!". Because that's the brunt of the story so far (I haven't read many of the recent comments to see if there was anything deeper revealed from the initial story)

We have one side of the story (with a part of the trail of messages recorded).

Harassment: n. the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/harassment

Systematic. Continued.

That's the basic definition I think when I hear the word Harassment.

Which is why context is king.

One string of conversations (including the texting)? That's not systematic or continued IF he stops when she says "I'm not interested".

If she said no, no, no, no... then that's continued. If he's pushing the issue that's continued. Some men don't know the meaning of "no". Some consider it a challenge. Some people think that non-verbal responses (like going out to a bar) mean that there IS a chance if you can get past the initial no.

At THAT point, we would have something that can be construed as harassment.

The problem with this entire conversation is we don't have the entire story. What was his response to her no? Has this continued or did it end?

This is one side of the story. I'm sorry, but I agree that a lawyer should be involved and proper procedures should be laid out going forward... and I agree IF he hasn't stopped after "no", then "bad things" should happen... but right now? We have one side of the story - and we don't have the whole story.

Slow, deliberate advancement with explicit ACKs? What is this? Some touchy feely dorm room with safe places and yes-means-yes over-PCd levels of red tape to show your interest? "May I have your permission to compliment you or can we discuss it with your lawyer?"? What nonsense...

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#572

Post by dragonwriter »

tptacek wrote: post #482
balls187 wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is practically no such thing as wrongful termination in the US. This is true. However, there is nothing also that stops individuals from filing costly "wrongful termination suits" against a company. In my little slice of the managerial world, we spend time with HR to fully document performance lapses, ensuring we have written statements clearly indicating expectations and whether they are met, solely because…

If you believe this, it's not safe to fire anyone --- all of them could "file costly wrongful termination suits". In fact, "wrongful termination" doesn't mean "terminated unfairly". It means "terminated unlawfully ". In the US, unlawful termination occurs: * When it contravenes an explicit clause in your employment contract or an implied contract you accidentally created. * When it has the effect of discriminating ag…

> As an attempt to bulletproof firings that target ostensible members of a protected class

This is phrased poorly -- everyone is a member of (several) protected class, since a protected class is an axis on which discrimination is illegal. Race is a protected class (not just particular races), color is a protected class (not just particular colors, and distinctly from race), religion is a protected class, sex (not just one sex) is a protected class, and so on.

And, in addition to anti-discrimination protected classes, there are all kinds of other prohibited bases for firing (e.g., retaliation for invoking various legally-protected workplace rights such as family/medical leave, etc., or reporting violations of workplace protection, such as wage/hour rules and occupational safety rules.)

PIPs are a tool for documenting reasons for firing to support that they were not for any unlawful reasons would be a more accurate phrasing than saying that they are a means of protecting firings that target "ostensible members of a protected class".

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#573

Post by nurettin »

Chris2048 wrote: post #547
nurettin wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dunno, I'd kinda assume people are being reasonable by default. That's how societies are built by the majority so that a minority of cynics can find the luxury to make sexist remarks within that established framework.

You're focusing on one bad outcome, while ignoring another.

I am trying to convey the notion that with this line of thought, anyone could be doing anything because they are unreasonable or selfish. The original poster could be experimenting on us to mine text and find differing levels of consensus per time when HN faces controversy. I could be a bot trying to be more human. Without taking evidence into account, most of society is garbage.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#574

Post by Mz »

namlem wrote: post #563
Mz wrote: post #174

So, I am female. When working at a Fortune 500 company, I once emailed a colleague and copied our two bosses. I advised him to never speak that way to me again. It went to HR. I got interviewed. I assume he got interviewed. He was not fired. He never spoke that way to me again. I eventually reestablished trust with this man and we got on well. I suspect he got sensitivity training. I was not told what went down. It w…

I think if the guy in question had been a long time or otherwise indispensable employee, this would be the right course of action. However, OP said he was just hired. In that case, it's probably easier just to fire him.

Easier and right are often not the same thing.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#575

Post by Mz »

specialist wrote: post #561
Mz wrote: post #174

So, I am female. When working at a Fortune 500 company, I once emailed a colleague and copied our two bosses. I advised him to never speak that way to me again. It went to HR. I got interviewed. I assume he got interviewed. He was not fired. He never spoke that way to me again. I eventually reestablished trust with this man and we got on well. I suspect he got sensitivity training. I was not told what went down. It w…

Late to this party, sorry. Just saw your blog post, commenting here. I agree with you that the female in this story handled the situation optimally. I recently made a sexual harassment claim at a megacorp. It was handled much as you described. I was pleased by the whole process and outcome. Much improved, very different from how these things were handled in the 90s. I agree with patio11's advice that the founder shou…

If you assume at the outset that he is on track to be fired, that has a tendency to be self fulfilling prophecy.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#576

Post by Chris2048 »

nurettin wrote: post #573
Chris2048 wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're focusing on one bad outcome, while ignoring another.

I am trying to convey the notion that with this line of thought, anyone could be doing anything because they are unreasonable or selfish. The original poster could be experimenting on us to mine text and find differing levels of consensus per time when HN faces controversy. I could be a bot trying to be more human. Without taking evidence into account, most of society is garbage.

Self-interest/motivation has its own MO. Also, sometimes motive isn't so important - physical behavior is. This is the evidence which can be collected. Otherwise you can't really assume much. Your original comment seemed to imply a conspiracy though through "built by".

This is a little detached from the original context though, and there's another issue there; People are not random processes, they may choose to pursue selfish strategies conditional on being in a system where it is uncritically "assume[d] people are being reasonable by default".

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#577

Post by Mz »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #499
Mz wrote: post #174

So, I am female. When working at a Fortune 500 company, I once emailed a colleague and copied our two bosses. I advised him to never speak that way to me again. It went to HR. I got interviewed. I assume he got interviewed. He was not fired. He never spoke that way to me again. I eventually reestablished trust with this man and we got on well. I suspect he got sensitivity training. I was not told what went down. It w…

Good job on that situation. This one seems a bit different as I'm with some guys that almost everyone, even frat boys, knows what she claimed is something that can annoy people. I differ from most on a few points. 1. It happened on the weekend on personal time on WhatApp chat she agreed to. That's personal and has nothing to do with work. I don't think it's a work issue until it impacts work by happening at work or b…

You need to decide what kind of environment you want at work. Is it an environment that builds bridges and helps people work together? Or is it an environment that promotes fear of speaking with members of the opposite sex at all?

I don't believe making people scared to talk to women at all does anything good for diversity. Companies with good diversity financially outperform companies that lack it. So trying to find a way to help diverse people work together is in the best interest of the company. It is not some do-gooder, pie in the sky thing. It is a practical approach to trying to build a successful company.

The histrionic responses here by people terrified to talk to a woman, terrified of offending a woman, etc are rooted in the current unhealthy culture. Your employees will come from that culture. You are unlikely to get any employees at all that are entirely unmarred by the larger culture.

Thus, male or female, your employees are likely to be in need of some education as to how to work effectively with members of the opposite sex.

I do not entirely agree that "It happened away from work, so it is not work related." But I have work of my own to do today and this discussion has already taken far more of my time than I expected it to.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#578

Post by Chris2048 »

nurettin wrote: post #569
ownagefool wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, no. You're assuming the woman is reasonble by default and thus the man must be at fault. This is actually a sexist point of view.

Except I wouldn't ignore textual evidence "because women can be unreasonable" or "men can be assholes".

Straw-man. Or possibly framing the original argument stereotypically/in bad-faith.

Concluding you only have one side of the story, is not the same as, nor necessitates ignoring it. One alternative is getting the other side of the story.

I also find the phrasing "because women can be unreasonable" to be suspicious - there is no reason to put it this way rather than "people can be unreasonable"; OP made no claim that only women should be treated with skepticism.

- are you trying to invoke the historical meme of women being dismissed as irrational?

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#579

Post by jeremyt »

hermannj314 wrote: post #344
jeremyt wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are all these people who think a small startup has a HR department?

Really? I'm pretty sure my advice has merit even if you don't have any HR professionals on full-time staff, just like 'lawyer up' has merit if you don't have a lawyer on staff. It really isn't hard to piece together. If you have no HR staff or lawyer on staff and have a question requiring their expertise, you can hire consultants or lawyers to assist you with your problem. If you are a really small start up and can't…

With respect, and I'm not saying this applies to you, but I'm poking fun at the people throughout this thread who keep saying that these incidents should be reported to HR, or we should get HR involved, or some combination.

In my opinion, these are comments from people sitting comfortably behind their chair at insert Fortune 500 company here, who have no idea what it's like to work at or run a startup. The suggestion that said startup should go out and hire an HR consultant is equally ridiculous.

That's not to say "lawyer up" isn't good advice, because I think it is, but startups routinely hire lawyers; they do not routinely hire HR people.

My startup was almost 4 years old and well past a B round before we ended up hiring our first HR person.

So, to be clear, what I'm saying is if the problem is bad enough, you should consult a lawyer. If it isn't, you should handle it in-house with common sense and perhaps some advice from advisors/lawyers. At no point do I think it's reasonable to advise someone to go out and hire an HR consultant.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#580

Post by Chris2048 »

dimino wrote: post #203
x5n1 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I don't know how the whole thing progressed. But it's a fine line and I guess he crossed it.

No, it's not a fine line, it's a thick line that's visible miles away. You don't tell people you want to fuck them at work.

* not at work
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