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Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#451

Post by tptacek »

roasm wrote: post #425
venomsnake wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you translate to human why " the person who reported this to you, who was called a "milf" by the bizdev guy, was on a PIP." is a nightmare scenario. If she is on a PIP (just checked out what that means), she is on a final warning basically?

You're right. If she was already on a dated and documented PIP before the report, then you're probably OK. It would be worse if you were just about to put her on a PIP.

I don't think timestamps are going to be as dispositive as you'd hope they'd be in this situation.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#452

Post by homogeneous »

Mz wrote: post #174

So, I am female. When working at a Fortune 500 company, I once emailed a colleague and copied our two bosses. I advised him to never speak that way to me again. It went to HR. I got interviewed. I assume he got interviewed. He was not fired. He never spoke that way to me again. I eventually reestablished trust with this man and we got on well. I suspect he got sensitivity training. I was not told what went down. It w…

I just wanted to say that I appreciate the nuanced tone of your reply, as well as the nuance present in your responses to those that disagree with you and also those that seem just slightly too eager to agree. Every individual has a personal anecdote that validates their "side" of the debate, and these anecdotes tend to drive the cadence of our reasoning into a direction that offers little consideration for outcomes that push us forward as a society in favor of those that capitulate to a sense of indignation that demands unequivocal satisfaction.

Thanks.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#453

Post by gkya »

DanBC wrote: post #445
gkya wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would you go to the police?! This is an employment matter, not a criminal matter. When you call it sexual harassment it's criminal. Otherwise you're basically saying that sexual harassment is not a crime. With regards to going to the boss, I'm perplexed with the role of the boss and the company in an interaction between two adults. Maybe that's a cultural issue, but I think it's the court's job to decide if an…

> When you call it sexual harassment it's criminal. No. Sexual harassment is not always a criminal offence. > With regards to going to the boss, I'm perplexed with the role of the boss and the company in an interaction between two adults. Those two adults met at work, and this meeting was a work related meeting - she had said that. The employer has a duty of care to the employees, so that's why its gone to the boss.…

Where I am judges decide and lawyers defend. I didn't say lawyers are unnecessary, just they can't make the ultimate decision. For the rest of your comment my answer is my parent comment, I don't think I can elaborate further.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#454

Post by meowface »

PhilWright wrote: post #449

I think the reaction of this thread is a little over the top. Lets calm down and be professional and adult before we convict someone based on scant information. I know it is fun to rail on someone but firing a person is not a minor issue and could potentially destroy someone's career. The information we are presented with is minimal. This is perfectly understandable but it means that no one in this thread has anythin…

While normally I'd agree with your point, the OP gave a pretty clear description of what the employee did.

>He asked to take the conversation off Slack (moved to Whatsapp) and asked if they could hang out (she said, "sure as friends in work context"), referred to her as a milf (ugh...), and asked if he could tell her a secret (she refused)

>I've seen the evidence of the texts in question.

It doesn't get any less ambiguous than that.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#456

Post by venomsnake »

tptacek wrote: post #450
venomsnake wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you translate to human why " the person who reported this to you, who was called a "milf" by the bizdev guy, was on a PIP." is a nightmare scenario. If she is on a PIP (just checked out what that means), she is on a final warning basically?

She's someone you're trying to manage out of the company. Maybe you were harsher on her performance metrics than you needed to be, because in the back of your head, getting rid of someone who complained about sexual harassment was easier than dealing with the problem. Presto: colorable sexual harassment and/or retaliation claim.

Thank you.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#457

Post by zepto »

econner wrote: post #377
zepto wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Men should not need sensitivity training to interact with women at work. Sexism should already be over, but it isn't, and is more complicated than people who think they are not sexist declaring zero tolerance policies.

Not sure where you're getting the "think they are not sexist" from. Everyone has unconscious biases (men and women). Some are more aware of them than others. This problem is not sexist in and of itself. It would be equally inappropriate for a woman to put a man in this position in the work place or for a man to put another man in this position, or woman to put another woman etc.

Have you studied sexism at all?

It's significantly more complicated than your simple explanation implies, which is mostly my point.

Hint: I don't disagree with that it would be equally inappropriate for a woman to put a man in this position, but that doesn't mean it isn't sexist.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#458

Post by ben174 »

meowface wrote: post #454
PhilWright wrote: post #449

I think the reaction of this thread is a little over the top. Lets calm down and be professional and adult before we convict someone based on scant information. I know it is fun to rail on someone but firing a person is not a minor issue and could potentially destroy someone's career. The information we are presented with is minimal. This is perfectly understandable but it means that no one in this thread has anythin…

While normally I'd agree with your point, the OP gave a pretty clear description of what the employee did. >He asked to take the conversation off Slack (moved to Whatsapp) and asked if they could hang out (she said, "sure as friends in work context"), referred to her as a milf (ugh...), and asked if he could tell her a secret (she refused) >I've seen the evidence of the texts in question. It doesn't get any less ambi…

"Milf" is where he crossed the line. Otherwise it's just clumsy courting. But "milf" is sexual harassment.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#459

Post by Bluestrike2 »

NateDad wrote: post #163
sathackr wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, so if I go to your boss and tell him you called me a MILF, it's true? It's not completely implausible there is an ulterior motive. And she is well protected if there is. He, on the other hand is not. None of us know enough about the situation to make a determination in either direction.

If you're a woman, yes, it's probably true. Like 10,000,000:1 chance. If the boss has known me for a long time and it seems completely out of character for me (which it would be), then maybe he talks to me about it to see WTF is up. But some dude who just got hired? Assuming there's no record and no witnesses? You have to go with the vastly more likely case that he did it. If that gets 1 in 10,000,000 guys unfairly f…

The reason sexual harassment complaints are taken at face value and assumed to be true has little to do with probabilities or truth and everything to do with risk. The potential liability of a mishandled complaint is greater than the possible damages (if any) associated with firing an employee in error. And if/when there are future complaints, the existence of an earlier, mishandled complaint greatly increases the contingent liability of that future complaint.

Is a risk-based approach less idealistic than a noble pursuit for absolute truth? Sure, but we live in the real world. Companies have to protect themselves, and there is no perfect solution for preventing sexual harassment. Education is critical, but so is a firm response.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#460

Post by qiqing »

patio11 wrote: post #3

Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER . I think the consensus in the grown-up business world is "fire immediately for cause." I would bet substantial money that when you lawyer lawyer lawyer they will advise you to do that and document the heck out of it. The calculus is really, really simple: if you don't, then you will with probability approaching one get this incident or a similar incident cited during a threa…

Yes, +1 to this.

Also, just because this one innocent employee says she "can handle it" doesn't mean that he isn't behaving like this to other employees, current or future. In order to (1) protect your other employees, and (2) set the tone for what is acceptable at your company, you need to get rid of this guy immediately.

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