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Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#301

Post by nlh »

stonecraftwolf wrote: post #78
patio11 wrote: post #3

Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER . I think the consensus in the grown-up business world is "fire immediately for cause." I would bet substantial money that when you lawyer lawyer lawyer they will advise you to do that and document the heck out of it. The calculus is really, really simple: if you don't, then you will with probability approaching one get this incident or a similar incident cited during a threa…

Oh God, yes, lawyer. And yes, fire him. In regards to OPs confusion about the innocent employees trepidation -- there is a reasonable fear of reprisals here. From you, from others on the team, and from the sexual harasser. Reprisals are often not easily identified -- they can be subtle and social in nature. What often happens is that the person who reports harassment is then punished because people no longer want to…

> What often happens is that the person who reports harassment is then punished because people no longer want to talk to her. They keep her out of the loop on casual stuff, but lots of professional discussions happen in casual contexts. Over time, she gets iced out for reporting illegal behavior.

I think this really depends on your team dynamic, and I wouldn't necessarily be concerned about this point (as valid as it is.)

On my team, I know if this happened, the person who reported the harassment would be totally supported. Inappropriate advances like that are just totally not tolerated, and if anything, the team would feel MORE comfortable knowing that their teammate doesn't stand for that crap. There'd be no shunning here. But of course YMMV.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#302

Post by snowwrestler »

kristofferR wrote: post #285
gommm wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a clear difference between "I like your new haircut" which I agree is not sexual harassment and MILF: Mother I'd Like to Fuck (which is just slightly above calling your coworker slut). The second sentence is sexual harassment.

Doesn't there have to be persistence involved for something to become harassment instead of just being a single instance of a offensive/dumb/annoying comment?

No, harassment is a violation of the norms of a professional workplace. If it only happens once, it still happened. It might not always be a firing offense, but at minimum it requires management to intervene and reset expectations.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#303

Post by duskwuff »

joering2 wrote: post #252
snowwrestler wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apart from the "Milf" comment I don't see much in your description of events that would qualify as sexual harassment Well yes, it might be hard to see the sexual harassment once you've decided to set aside the sexually harassing part.

Excuse me, but where was it? Also, Milf can be sexual harassment. Sure. So can be telling someone "you look nice". I worked with someone that was bashed by HR by telling a co-worker "I like your new haircut". I didn't see it as SH. It depends on point of view.

Unless you are in the porn business, describing a coworker as a "MILF" is always sexual harassment. The acronym literally declares an intention to have sexual intercourse; it has no innocent interpretation.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#304

Post by joering2 »

gommm wrote: post #270
joering2 wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me, but where was it? Also, Milf can be sexual harassment. Sure. So can be telling someone "you look nice". I worked with someone that was bashed by HR by telling a co-worker "I like your new haircut". I didn't see it as SH. It depends on point of view.

There's a clear difference between "I like your new haircut" which I agree is not sexual harassment and MILF: Mother I'd Like to Fuck (which is just slightly above calling your coworker slut). The second sentence is sexual harassment.

uhm okay. So basically movies full of violence, drugs, guns, etc, and video games full of similar are fine. You wouldn't be offended if someone in your office plays Call of Duty right?

But somehow telling someone you find them attractive (I'd like to Fuck) is offensive.

Gee I feel bad for you... if that really offends you.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#305

Post by sridca »

whiddershins wrote: post #255

It was very interesting for me to observe my own reaction to this thread. When I first read what you wrote, I though "fire. immediately." I think I was just angry that someone would be so off the mark when they are a new hire. And the milf thing made me genuinely angry. But as that anger passed I realized how much of a gross overreaction that is. People pursue workplace romance all the time. The thing that sucks abou…

> The thing that sucks about approaching someone is when it is welcome, you are golden, and when it is unwelcome, you are a creep.

I hear you. I actually read a comment here at HN by such a "golden" man and his experiences (women from his workplace approached him often), but unfortunately I cannot find it right now.

Keep the workplace separate from romance. Heck, even outside of the workplace things can be risky (I had been called a stalker by a female neighbor just for existing, uh).

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#306

Post by 467568985476 »

everly wrote: post #84

It's baffling/hilarious/concerning to me that there are multiple commenters saying they're not able to see the harassment and asking for clarification.

And all the people saying, "Well, give him another chance. Everyone makes mistakes and maybe he can learn from his..." as if this kind of "mistake" is a normal one that anybody might make. I think it says a lot about the commenters' attitudes towards their female coworkers.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#307

Post by wernercd »

nkrisc wrote: post #278
falcolas wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per the side of the story we know. Do you know something not present in this narrative? The use of 'milf', whether it's derogatory or a compliment, will depend entirely on the context of the larger conversation. Something we don't have. Something which apparently the OP didn't have either.

The context is irrelevant. Whether or not it was intended as a compliment, or even received as a compliment does not matter. It was inappropriate for the workplace.

If this was "after hours" between two adults? Was it a couple comments, that got rebuffed (You think I'm cute? Thank you, but I'm not interested) and was then dropped? Was it repeated comments that continued after "she" said no?

I wouldn't use those terms with someone at work, during working hours... I wouldn't think it's earth ending to compliment someone after hours, outside of the work place (The terminology is a bit strong for my tastes, but assuming it is intended to be "complementary"... depending on how "comfortable" I was with someone, I might use similar terms if I "read the situation" as "she might be interested")

I'm all for "fire for harassment"... but is this really harassment (continued after refusal)? Or is this a one time thing that happened when hanging out after hours that ended upon request?

"Context is irrelevant" is a bit short sighted, because context - and responses of all involved - is completely relevant..

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#308

Post by Mz »

467568985476 wrote: post #306
everly wrote: post #84

It's baffling/hilarious/concerning to me that there are multiple commenters saying they're not able to see the harassment and asking for clarification.

And all the people saying, "Well, give him another chance. Everyone makes mistakes and maybe he can learn from his..." as if this kind of "mistake" is a normal one that anybody might make. I think it says a lot about the commenters' attitudes towards their female coworkers.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11666857

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#309

Post by ChemicalWarfare »

snowwrestler wrote: post #222
ChemicalWarfare wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a fine line there. From what I understand from whatever corporate training I went through in the past - if there's a job-related activity like team dinner and then some ppl go to the bar for a few drinks - this is still 'job related'. Same goes for business-related travel and so on. In this particular case though - a weekend conversation after an explicit request to take it private - not sure if this…

Coworkers speak privately to one another all the time about all sorts of things. Even in private conversations, they can reasonably expect professional and appropriate behavior from their colleagues. When does someone become "more" than a coworker? There's no clear line there, but it's definitely not during the very first private conversation.

Don't think there's a question here whether his comments were appropriate or not. They were not.

Ppl also get harassed on the street with all kinds of inappropriate comments.

The question here is whether this constitutes a workplace sexual harassment or not. It's probably going to be a judgement call on behalf of the employer, however they have to be careful not to get a wrongful termination lawsuit to deal with down the line if they do end up letting him go.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#310

Post by chase_meridian »

As a female startup founder I can't tell you this emphatically enough: fire him. Your judgement and opinion of this dude will always be clouded by this incident and it opens you up to a lawsuit both things you do not want to deal with, fire him.
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