Live data from Hacker News

Reflections: The ecosystem is moving

whispersystems.org

11–20 of 103 posts

Re: Reflections: The ecosystem is moving

#11
post #6

I'll add my thoughts here, since I think a number of people will be disappointed in this post. There are a number of competing goals when developing software that "the whole world can/will use". And it seems obvious to me that getting the whole world to use a secure, encrypted messenger like Signal (now, Whatsapp) is a noble goal. The obvious competing goal is federation, and the fact that we've failed at improving f…

It's precisely the fact that Moxie is so credible on this topic that makes his post so frustrating. I believe that he's telling the truth as he sees it, and I believe that he's as well-situated as anyone could be to pull off a white-hat secure messaging system, so if he says it can't be done with federation, it's awfully hard for me to assert that he's wrong.

The problem is that I don't see the point of doing any of this without federation. If we're just using the Internet as a substrate for a bunch of proprietary silo services, then we're just back to the way things were before - walled gardens and media conglomerates and extortionate Bell System-style lock-in shenanigans. So what? Why bother? What have we gained, with all this effort, if we're back in the same old shit again?

The whole point was that we no longer needed to get anyone's permission to communicate, to publish, to build new services for interacting with each other; we could just do it. If federation is gone, then those days are gone, and the most important reason to care about the Internet is gone, too.

Re: Reflections: The ecosystem is moving

#12
So: I was the other side of the email conversation that Moxie alludes to in this post, so I'll respond to it here given comments are disabled on the OWS blog :)

1. Totally agreed that federation slows down evolution of the core protocol. However, higher level protocols do NOT have to be stuck in time forever in the manner of SMTP if you design them with a migration/evolution strategy from the outset. For instance, with Matrix.org the core premise is decentralising communication between different networks. This includes different versions of Matrix itself. We could build an entirely new Matrix 2.0 tomorrow, using (say) a fully p2p WebRTC Datachannel transport or IPFS or whatever rather than today's HTTP APIs... and simply bridge it into the existing Matrix network using Matrix's existing bridging architecture. In fact, one of our favourite thought experiments is the process of how to evolve Matrix into a full e2e-and-metadata-privacy-protecting protocol at some point in future - as per http://matrix.org/~matthew/2015-06-26%20Matrix%20Jardin%20En.... How you protect metadata privacy if locked to a single centralised service like Signal is perhaps questionable.

We believe that avoiding being dependent on any single communication provider is just as important to user freedom as maintaining communication privacy. If I don't trust Signal to host my communication reliably, I want to pick my own provider... whilst still being able to talk to other Signal users.

One could argue that end-to-end encryption is incompatible with federation, as if a vulnerability is found in the encryption ratchet you need the power to upgrade the world 'instantly', as WhatsApp or whoever can. However, I am not convinced this is a showstopper. It's certainly convenient that WhatsApp can instantly lock out all versions of an app which are known to contain a vulnerability from their network, but you can get a similar effect by issuing a press release as per heardbleed, poodle etc; giving users a way to check if they're vulnerable; encouraging them to move to a provider or app which is not vulnerable. It's not watertight, but it's a compromise I think many would be willing to make in exchange for having the freedom to select their communication provider and communicate with who they choose.

2. If the federated protocol has well-defined layers, it's not even a problem if the lower layers are slow and hard to evolve; you just go and swap out the higher layer ones. Internet Protocol is so widely deployed it's infamously painful to evolve... but it's a relatively simple and well-focused problem domain, so a huge migration like ipv4->ipv6 happens very rarely. But it hasn't materially slowed down the adoption and uptake of the internet - in fact, ipv4 is a victim of its own success! Meanwhile, HTTP is also so widely deployed that it's a relatively slow process to do something like HTTP/1.x->HTTP/2. But, again, it turns out this isn't remotely a showstopping problem - most of the interesting stuff happens layered as applications on top of HTTP - HTTP does one thing, and does it relatively well, so it's a great building block. And it's the basis of the entirely open and interoperable architecture of the web.

With Matrix, we're trying to provide a similarly simple and focused base layer: a decentralised pubsub/storage API layered on HTTP. We provide some modules that define additional semantics (messaging, VoIP etc) as layers on top of that core API (http://matrix.org/docs/spec/client_server/r0.1.0.html#module...) which can evolve separately.

We believe that having an open and interoperable protocol for securely synchronising data in realtime is as fundamental as the web itself, and this is NOT a function that should be silo'd into any provider.

3. The blog post says: "One of the controversial things we did with Signal early on was to build it as an unfederated service.". This seems a bit strange, given the TextSecure server itself exposes a basic federation API: https://github.com/WhisperSystems/TextSecure-Server/tree/mas...

4. My actual retort wasn't to tell Moxie that he's dumb - he's obviously an incredibly smart guy, even if I disagree with his position here. I actually said: "Okay. The internet wouldn't have got very far without interoperable application-layer protocols defined by 3rd parties, but if you would only ever consider using one for TextSecure that you invented yourself, that's your call :)"

So, if anyone's reading this and still believes in the dream of an interoperable and federated internet, feel free to come hang out at https://matrix.to/#/#matrix:matrix.org and live the dream :)

Re: Reflections: The ecosystem is moving

#13
post #6

I'll add my thoughts here, since I think a number of people will be disappointed in this post. There are a number of competing goals when developing software that "the whole world can/will use". And it seems obvious to me that getting the whole world to use a secure, encrypted messenger like Signal (now, Whatsapp) is a noble goal. The obvious competing goal is federation, and the fact that we've failed at improving f…

It's precisely the fact that Moxie is so credible on this topic that makes his post so frustrating. I believe that he's telling the truth as he sees it, and I believe that he's as well-situated as anyone could be to pull off a white-hat secure messaging system, so if he says it can't be done with federation, it's awfully hard for me to assert that he's wrong. The problem is that I don't see the point of doing any of…

I hesitate to get all Clay Shirkey here, but I think this is fundamentally different from media conglomerates and Bell Systems, given that now anyone has the ability to build their own overlay service with relatively minimal investment.

Part of what I've been noticing is that we have these "walled gardens" today that people consider to be synonymous with "lock in," but it's actually easier for people to move from Viber to WhatsApp to Telegram to Signal today than it is for people to move from gmail to yahoo mail.

In a sense there's less lock-in with centralized messaging services than there is with the federated ones, due in part to the move towards user-owned identifiers like phone numbers.

Re: Reflections: The ecosystem is moving

#14
post #6

I'll add my thoughts here, since I think a number of people will be disappointed in this post. There are a number of competing goals when developing software that "the whole world can/will use". And it seems obvious to me that getting the whole world to use a secure, encrypted messenger like Signal (now, Whatsapp) is a noble goal. The obvious competing goal is federation, and the fact that we've failed at improving f…

It's precisely the fact that Moxie is so credible on this topic that makes his post so frustrating. I believe that he's telling the truth as he sees it, and I believe that he's as well-situated as anyone could be to pull off a white-hat secure messaging system, so if he says it can't be done with federation, it's awfully hard for me to assert that he's wrong. The problem is that I don't see the point of doing any of…

The fact that Signal exists, and I can use it every day with friends and coworkers, is evidence that we are not locked in. No one is making money from Signal, and anyone who uses Signal can switch to any of ten different (less secure) apps in five minutes. And if Signal goes away or whatever, we can build our own! The only thing stopping us is that we are a lot worse at designing crypto than Moxie and Trevor ;)

Re: Reflections: The ecosystem is moving

#15
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's precisely the fact that Moxie is so credible on this topic that makes his post so frustrating. I believe that he's telling the truth as he sees it, and I believe that he's as well-situated as anyone could be to pull off a white-hat secure messaging system, so if he says it can't be done with federation, it's awfully hard for me to assert that he's wrong. The problem is that I don't see the point of doing any of…

The fact that Signal exists, and I can use it every day with friends and coworkers, is evidence that we are not locked in. No one is making money from Signal, and anyone who uses Signal can switch to any of ten different (less secure) apps in five minutes. And if Signal goes away or whatever, we can build our own! The only thing stopping us is that we are a lot worse at designing crypto than Moxie and Trevor ;)

I was using Signal, too. One day it phoned home, got some new instructions from its creators, refused to work any longer, and demanded that I download an upgrade. I was not excited about this, since upgrades generally break things, but after a few days of grumbling I knuckled under. Sure enough, the upgrade is broken: it insists that I have to upgrade Google Play Services, which I can't do, because I deleted it along with the rest of the Google code I don't want to use.

I can't use Signal anymore, by Open Whispersystems' choice, which means I can't easily communicate with a fair number of my friends anymore, and that's apparently just the way it is. Open Whispersystems demands that I let Google have a level of access to my phone I don't want them to have, or they won't let me use Signal. Their proprietary Signal software is the only way to use the Signal service, so I can't just switch to an app whose privacy characteristics might be a better fit for my needs, as no other apps exist.

Am I going to convince everyone I want to communicate with that they should stop using Signal and start using something else? No, I am not, because why would they do that? They're all happily using Signal now, and I'm the odd one out, so I lose. Sure feels a lot like lock-in; I have no good choices here.

Re: Reflections: The ecosystem is moving

#16
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's precisely the fact that Moxie is so credible on this topic that makes his post so frustrating. I believe that he's telling the truth as he sees it, and I believe that he's as well-situated as anyone could be to pull off a white-hat secure messaging system, so if he says it can't be done with federation, it's awfully hard for me to assert that he's wrong. The problem is that I don't see the point of doing any of…

I hesitate to get all Clay Shirkey here, but I think this is fundamentally different from media conglomerates and Bell Systems, given that now anyone has the ability to build their own overlay service with relatively minimal investment. Part of what I've been noticing is that we have these "walled gardens" today that people consider to be synonymous with "lock in," but it's actually easier for people to move from Vib…

[deleted]

Re: Reflections: The ecosystem is moving

#17
post #7

No users, no walled garden. More users, more walled garden. Is this just the natural state of systems that require/acquire network effects?

I have a universal theory about this which is "spam and abuse make everything suck".

This is why we can't have an open libertarian Internet, and instead have walled gardens and moderated forums - ordinary users don't want to deal with the crap.

It's also why we don't have open API's, and why the API's that the big providers do give us tend to be nerfed and then discontinued - they're constantly abused, which imposes a maintenance cost that businesses have to justify.

It's why an email server is so difficult to run and email delivery is so unreliable. It's why you can't (or shouldn't) rely too much on Paypal. It's why governments effectively outsource Internet policing to big providers.

And so on.

Re: Reflections: The ecosystem is moving

#18
post #10

I totally get this; federation is hard , and its so much easier and nicer ─ as a developer ─ to have a centralised service. Often centralisation is the right choice for a particular project, and I respect that. That doesn't mean we should give up trying to federate things, though. The major upside (for me) to federated systems is simple: choice . Choice over the client you use. Choice over the servers you use. Choice…

> The major upside (for me) to federated systems is simple: choice. Choice over the client you use. Choice over the servers you use. Choice. For something so fundamental as how we communicate over the internet that's incredibly important. I want to be able to use the app I want without having to figure out if the other person is using the same app, and i don't want to have to have 10 different apps on my phone just to keep in touch with everyone.

Isn't that exactly the point of the post? If you have lots of choices, what you end up using depends on the intersection of features that your client and the client of the person you communicate with can handle. Which usually ends up advancing slowly, if at all. I'm still a user of XMPP and maybe there is a way to do video chats. But I don't bother trying to set that up as I don't expect it to ever work reliably: I just checked five random contacts and everyone of them uses a different jabber client. So what I end up doing is using XMPP for text chat on my desktop machine and skype/hangout if I need video conferencing.

Same with email. Apart from a bunch of anti spam headers, emails I receive basically look the same they did 10 or 20 years ago. Trying to implement accessible end-to-end crypto probably won't happen for the same reasons.

Re: Reflections: The ecosystem is moving

#19
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that Signal exists, and I can use it every day with friends and coworkers, is evidence that we are not locked in. No one is making money from Signal, and anyone who uses Signal can switch to any of ten different (less secure) apps in five minutes. And if Signal goes away or whatever, we can build our own! The only thing stopping us is that we are a lot worse at designing crypto than Moxie and Trevor ;)

I was using Signal, too. One day it phoned home, got some new instructions from its creators, refused to work any longer, and demanded that I download an upgrade. I was not excited about this, since upgrades generally break things, but after a few days of grumbling I knuckled under. Sure enough, the upgrade is broken: it insists that I have to upgrade Google Play Services, which I can't do, because I deleted it along…

Wisper's arguement here is basicly: you don't matter, and we arn't going to do anything to help you.

And due to their walled garden, you can't do anything to help yourself either.

so much for "open source infrastructure for a centralized network now provides almost the same level of control as federated protocols"

Unless you mean control for Google.

Post reply on HN