I like the Greek word comments, they greatly help my understanding of the meanings (I'm Greek; Greek words have more nuance).
Aristotle, “On Trolling”
31–40 of 90 posts
Re: Aristotle, “On Trolling”
#32Earlier quoted context omitted.
Regardless of what definition of "art" you follow, I feel like trolling as described by labster can certainly be used for good. Labster himself describes the use of trolling in tricking the reluctant apprentice into learning, or using it to sow strife to further policy making and bring about social change. "Good" is in the eye of the beholder, but I could certainly consider some of those things to be good some of the…
The only problem is that "sublime trolling" is something he made up. Tricking apprentices to learn, come on. He's just playing devil's advocate in a not very convincing way.
From the essay:
> but what trolling is, and how many its species are, and whether there is an excellence of the troll, is unclear.
I happen to agree with Labster's point that trolling, in rare but excellent cases, can be a thing of art, and can be used with purpose.
Re: Aristotle, “On Trolling”
#33I was unaware that people trolled for any other reason than amusement. Is there an estimate of how frequently people troll for calculated (e.g. monetary) reasons? So my take is that she says trolls act as a kind of solvent to the natural bonds of community, and she lists a few frequently used constructions. I suppose the only beneficial use of trolls and trolling is to destroy communities of little worth. If trolls s…
What was called 'griefing' is now called trolling too, unfortunately. I think trolling can be positive and well-done. I'd say Swift's "A Modest Proposal" is an example.
Swift is satire. People reading it weren't supposed to believe it was sincere.
People use the word differently, but to me a troll is someone who really wants people to think he has opinions that he doesn't have - for whatever reason.
Re: Aristotle, “On Trolling”
#34I didn't know they had the internet in ancient Greece
Re: Aristotle, “On Trolling”
#35Speaking of trolls and Ancient Greece philosophers...
When you troll your community so bad they sentence you to death by drinking hemlock.
Re: Aristotle, “On Trolling”
#36I think we, as hackers, are somewhat lucky when identifying trolls. This is because our projects, our work with computers encourages less ambiguity. For example, if a troll enters a thread and asks a question about why a product doesnt support feature X we can give good, rational answers. If they don't get our message and press forward with their ignorance we can dismiss them as troll.
We, as hackers, as members of communities outside our work or projects (for example, as an enthusiastic invested consumer of Apple, or a enthusiastic FOSS evangelist) where there is more ambiguity in whats true or false are more susceptible towards trolls.
In the first case there is a certainty about reality, and in the second the troll disturbs a fabricated reality based on social dynamics.
For example, if I were to say that you as part of the HN community believes things on faith which are not real or true, but you only believe these things because the community you belong to wouldnt accept you if you went against the group, you be slightly offended. I would be trolling you, but I would also be speaking the truth.
In both examples, trolls are outside the group, and the best way to identify a troll is to examine you and your peers within the group. How do you label the troll, how do you/they discuss the individual? Look at the words - "neckbeard" "basement" "not educated" "pyjamas" "troublesome" "problematic" - these are all commonly used to further exclude an individual from a group. Trolls can show group dynamics in action.
Codes of Conduct in online communities are all about group dynamics and security and not about making the community more inclusive or diverse. CoCs are anti troll measures.
In summary though - here is a radical idea. Without trolls your group is weaker. Its only by pointing out a threat to a group, by identifying what is not the group that the group is stronger. By fighting against trolls you defend your own investments in the groups and communities (no matter how fake and useless) you belong to.
Re: Aristotle, “On Trolling”
#37I was unaware that people trolled for any other reason than amusement. Is there an estimate of how frequently people troll for calculated (e.g. monetary) reasons? So my take is that she says trolls act as a kind of solvent to the natural bonds of community, and she lists a few frequently used constructions. I suppose the only beneficial use of trolls and trolling is to destroy communities of little worth. If trolls s…
Re: Aristotle, “On Trolling”
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
I read something recently that Socrates was killed because he supported the wrong political faction during a time of conflict. When their enemies gained power they exacted revenge by framing him by accusing him of impiety and corrupting the youth (won't somebody think of the children?). Besides they gave him an out (exile), which he declined so he chose martyrdom and the rest is history as they say. But at this remov…
I heard it was because some of his students rebelled against the government, took over and ended up acting as tyrants for a certain amount of time. So he kind of got the blame for their actions, as the one who 'inspired' them.
I imagine he doesn't get called a gadfly for nothing. The only Platonic dialogue I can stand is The Symposium because Socrates' method of interrogation is elsewhere too annoying†. Maybe instead of "don't feed the trolls" we should say "don't feed the gadflies".
† Having said that, I recently got out of the library Heyting's _Intuitionism: An Introduction_ and it's in fictional dialogue format initially which irritated me no end. (So maybe it's not Socrates but the form!) I guess I don't appreciate it as a teaching method but I can see why it is used especially if otherwise there would be a lot of back-and-forth question-response type segments in the text. Not a fan :)
Re: Aristotle, “On Trolling”
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
Regardless of what definition of "art" you follow, I feel like trolling as described by labster can certainly be used for good. Labster himself describes the use of trolling in tricking the reluctant apprentice into learning, or using it to sow strife to further policy making and bring about social change. "Good" is in the eye of the beholder, but I could certainly consider some of those things to be good some of the…
The only problem is that "sublime trolling" is something he made up. Tricking apprentices to learn, come on. He's just playing devil's advocate in a not very convincing way.
http://thecodelesscode.com/
almost all of these koans are masters trolling students
Re: Aristotle, “On Trolling”
#40I think we, as hackers, are somewhat lucky when identifying trolls. This is because our projects, our work with computers encourages less ambiguity. For example, if a troll enters a thread and asks a question about why a product doesnt support feature X we can give good, rational answers. If they don't get our message and press forward with their ignorance we can dismiss them as troll. We, as hackers, as members of c…
The fact that people still discuss spaces vs. tabs easily disproves your point. Vi vs. emacs? Again, group dynamics in action, and those discussions still end up in thousands of replies.