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Whatever happened to programming?

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Re: Whatever happened to programming?

#31

Post by gamble »

houseabsolute wrote: post #18
pw0ncakes wrote: post #5

Javaschools, PHBs, and other failed attempts at the commoditization/regularization of the software engineer brought this about. There are as many interesting problems today as there were in 1960 or 1985 or 1998. There will be demand for new languages (and new compilers for those languages). Operating systems may or may not be "solved" for now, but VMs are going to be of interest in the next 10 years. The problem is t…

> Javaschools, PHBs, and other failed attempts at the commoditization/regularization of the software engineer brought this about. Personally I am glad the same thing happened to other industries like shoemakers and car builders. They have been commoditized: so what? It's good for people who buy their product. The same is true of typical software engineering work. Although I disagree about the extent to which our work…

The problem with the software industry is that it isn't productized.

Probably the majority of programmers are working for internal corporate IT departments cranking out CRUD apps because the company mistakenly believes it's a precious, unique snowflake that couldn't possibly make do with off-the-shelf software for routine business processes, even though they derive no competitive advantage from custom software. Most of these jobs simply shouldn't exist.

The larger problem is that too many people profit from the dysfunctions of the software industry. From the empire-building CIO to the outsourcer in India, there are plenty of people who benefit from shovelling bad programmers at bad software, and would lose out if companies bought cheap, standardized software from independent companies.

Re: Whatever happened to programming?

#32

Post by sgacka »

ilovecomputers wrote: post #22
sgacka wrote: post #13

Libraries were created so that you could focus on mastering new and unexplored territory, not to replace programmers. As a beginner, I didn't appreciate big libraries (like Cocoa). I couldn't wrap my head around the idea of having tons of prewritten code and stitching it together - I understood programming as writing code - so I wanted to write my own damn code, not just manipulate massive libraries. So I turned to P…

Where does mathematics come into play in your evaluation? I just spent last quarter on discrete mathematics and digital design and it has given me a different perspective on programming in my learning experience. I wouldn't call myself a programmer yet ( Joe Hewitt has made that apparent to me: http://twitter.com/joehewitt/status/9813494038 ), but it seems like modern software engineering is a form of alchemy now. I…

Math has always been a part of technical design. I think "programming" is starting to become a field where the actual authoring of code and the design of logic fuse completely. So the future of programming combines the design (engineering, mathematics, etc.) with writing code.

From my somewhat inexperienced standpoint, I think programming has gone from instructing the computer to complete a task, to telling the computer to create a logic and handle events based on a complex set of conditions. The former was simple - 1, 2, 3, done - while the latter requires you to design a system, then make that system function through code.

I see old-style programming as following a map: go straight, turn right, turn left, and then stop at the destination. Modern programming is more like telling the computer to use this logic to find its own way on the map, then follow through.

Basically, I see programming slowly morphing into the creation of artificial intelligence.

Re: Whatever happened to programming?

#34

Post by brown9-2 »

I want to make things, not just glue things together. When people ask me what I like about my job, I always say the same thing: that its the thrill of starting with nothing and making something.

I couldn't agree with this more.

Re: Whatever happened to programming?

#36

Post by kylemathews »

My comment I left on the post:

I guess it depends on your motivation. I don't program because I love creating complex data structures or innovative new algorithms, I program because I want to create innovative new applications that change how people live, think, work, learn, etc. I signed up for programming so I could change the world for the better in my own little way -- not improve how an electronic machine inputs and outputs binary input.

But to each their own. It seems everyone likes to work at different levels of abstractions. I think we can both agree that those electric engineers are weird :)

Re: Whatever happened to programming?

#37

Post by alanthonyc »

jdietrich wrote: post #30

My biggest gripe with modern programming is the sheer volume of arbitrary stuff I need to know. My current project has so far required me to know about Python, Django, Google App Engine and it's datastore, XHTML, CSS, JQuery, Javascript, JSON, and a clutch of XML schema, APIs and the like. Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for all of it, but it just doesn't seem like what I was promised when I followed SICP for the fi…

I know exactly how you feel. Having to pick up all those different knowledge sets is something else. However, I balance the fundamental desire to build things against a fundamental desire to build things people can use.

It's the pride in me. The closest I came to it a long time ago was when I animated a bunch of search algorithms for a class project in college. That was one of my favorites because I could show my non-geek friends what I was doing and they could appreciate it.

It's a big reason why I am now focusing on my web app. The web is at a point where I can build something and get (potentially) millions of people using it. I'll sacrifice some hands-off-ness in my programming for that.

Re: Whatever happened to programming?

#38

Post by jimbokun »

jdietrich wrote: post #30

My biggest gripe with modern programming is the sheer volume of arbitrary stuff I need to know. My current project has so far required me to know about Python, Django, Google App Engine and it's datastore, XHTML, CSS, JQuery, Javascript, JSON, and a clutch of XML schema, APIs and the like. Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for all of it, but it just doesn't seem like what I was promised when I followed SICP for the fi…

I kind of like it.

The thing is, most of the languages you mention are pretty good at what they do. Python is a good general purpose language, and Django is just a Python framework, right? (Not a Django developer.) XHTML does a good job describing hierarchical content to be displayed. CSS is a good language for styling content separately from the structure on a site wide basis. JQuery and Javascript can be looked at as a single thing, and if you know the syntax for Javascript data structure literals, you pretty much know JSON. Google App Engine seems to potentially offer a lot for the learning curve required (not an App Engine developer, just read some tutorials).

XML, well, there's just no excuse for that. :)

Some people complain about all the parts you need to know to build web applications as compared to desktop applications. But I think that the different languages each doing their thing well makes for a better development experience. The other great thing is the diversity of choices for the backend technology stack, like Viaweb deciding to build web apps just so they could avoid Windows and use Lisp (...and some Perl and C++, I think).

Re: Whatever happened to programming?

#39

Post by DannoHung »

marshallp wrote: post #15
sgacka wrote: post #13

Libraries were created so that you could focus on mastering new and unexplored territory, not to replace programmers. As a beginner, I didn't appreciate big libraries (like Cocoa). I couldn't wrap my head around the idea of having tons of prewritten code and stitching it together - I understood programming as writing code - so I wanted to write my own damn code, not just manipulate massive libraries. So I turned to P…

I think you need to really learn what sql is. It's a 4th generation language, higher level than php or other oo/procedural/functional langauges. If you're finding php and a framework to be better you're underestimating the power of sql.

SQL, or more accurately, relational algebra, is a thing of pure mathematical beauty.

The problem is all the other crap that you have to layer on top of it for it to be really, really useful.

Re: Whatever happened to programming?

#40

Post by jimbokun »

I think to do actual "programming" you need to work for a software company. Google and Facebook and other gargantuan sites have as much interesting CS stuff to work on as you could want. I'm sure many at Apple and Microsoft still get down and dirty with OS internals. There are a lot of companies springing up focused on machine learning over massive datasets.

If you are building applications for end users, though, it's hard to justify not leveraging libraries and frameworks that already supply much of what your users want. Especially if the software does not directly make money for your organization.

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