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Swift Programming Language Evolution

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Re: Swift Programming Language Evolution

#11

Post by matt4077 »

Someone1234 wrote: post #2

So Swift has been out awhile, what do people think of it? What other language would you compare it to (e.g. C#, C, C++, etc)? What about the libraries are they well laid out?

I'd put Go at the top of the languages to compare it to. Maybe Java as well. The ecosystem still needs some time, but Swift's potential on the server is excellent:

- It is incredibly fast compared to current interpreted languages (i. e. factor 30+ vs. Python, possibly faster than C)

- Linux & OS X, open source

- Typed, safe

People like node.js mostly b/c it allows some code to be written once and run on both the server as well as the client. Considering almost any Web API also has an IOS client, Swift has the same potential.

Re: Swift Programming Language Evolution

#12

Post by mikeash »

Karunamon wrote: post #3

Are there any plans in place for locking down the syntax? Major release 3 is coming and developers are still being expected to hit a moving target. One of the nice things about C is that K&R era C is just as valid as C written nowadays, but Swift appears to be going in the opposite direction, every major release adding and removing bits of syntax. As someone unfamiliar with the language, it makes me not want to pick…

C got started in 1972, and K&R C dates from 1978 and includes compatibility-breaking changes.

You want a young language to change a lot, because you don't really know what it needs until you get it out there and people use it. You want to make necessary changes as early as possible to cause the least pain. Major changes at the two-year mark will be a lot easier than major changes at the five or ten year mark, and waiting too long to fix a bad decision will probably mean it sticks around forever.

I would expect Swift 3 to be the last release with major source-breaking changes.

Re: Swift Programming Language Evolution

#13

Post by dalbin »

kris-s wrote: post #8
Someone1234 wrote: post #2

So Swift has been out awhile, what do people think of it? What other language would you compare it to (e.g. C#, C, C++, etc)? What about the libraries are they well laid out?

My favorite thing about Swift is that is seems to get out of the way - and when it gets in the way it's usually with a nifty language feature (like the { $0 + $1 } closure syntax). I'm very excited for the future - between Go and Swift we now have two compiled fast languages that are almost as expressive as their slower dynamic/interpreted cousins. As an aside, I like that Apple is betting the farm on ARC. I wish I c…

There is a pretty good comment from Chris Lattner about ARC versus GC : https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mo...

Re: Swift Programming Language Evolution

#14

Post by shiny »

dalbin wrote: post #13
kris-s wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favorite thing about Swift is that is seems to get out of the way - and when it gets in the way it's usually with a nifty language feature (like the { $0 + $1 } closure syntax). I'm very excited for the future - between Go and Swift we now have two compiled fast languages that are almost as expressive as their slower dynamic/interpreted cousins. As an aside, I like that Apple is betting the farm on ARC. I wish I c…

There is a pretty good comment from Chris Lattner about ARC versus GC : https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mo...

I really like the `deinit` construct that comes with ARC, which lets you know when an object is about to be deallocated. Makes it much easier to find memory leaks, imo.

Re: Swift Programming Language Evolution

#15

Post by lorenzhs »

matt4077 wrote: post #11
Someone1234 wrote: post #2

So Swift has been out awhile, what do people think of it? What other language would you compare it to (e.g. C#, C, C++, etc)? What about the libraries are they well laid out?

I'd put Go at the top of the languages to compare it to. Maybe Java as well. The ecosystem still needs some time, but Swift's potential on the server is excellent: - It is incredibly fast compared to current interpreted languages (i. e. factor 30+ vs. Python, possibly faster than C) - Linux & OS X, open source - Typed, safe People like node.js mostly b/c it allows some code to be written once and run on both the serv…

Do you have a link to some benchmarks at hand? Your "possibly faster than C" claim sounds too good to be true without a source, but I'd very much like to be proven wrong :)

Re: Swift Programming Language Evolution

#16

Post by kris-s »

dalbin wrote: post #13
kris-s wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favorite thing about Swift is that is seems to get out of the way - and when it gets in the way it's usually with a nifty language feature (like the { $0 + $1 } closure syntax). I'm very excited for the future - between Go and Swift we now have two compiled fast languages that are almost as expressive as their slower dynamic/interpreted cousins. As an aside, I like that Apple is betting the farm on ARC. I wish I c…

There is a pretty good comment from Chris Lattner about ARC versus GC : https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mo...

awesome!

Re: Swift Programming Language Evolution

#17

Post by api »

kris-s wrote: post #8
Someone1234 wrote: post #2

So Swift has been out awhile, what do people think of it? What other language would you compare it to (e.g. C#, C, C++, etc)? What about the libraries are they well laid out?

My favorite thing about Swift is that is seems to get out of the way - and when it gets in the way it's usually with a nifty language feature (like the { $0 + $1 } closure syntax). I'm very excited for the future - between Go and Swift we now have two compiled fast languages that are almost as expressive as their slower dynamic/interpreted cousins. As an aside, I like that Apple is betting the farm on ARC. I wish I c…

I'm always a bit fascinated when what everyone knows is the next thing turns out not to be. RISC is a classic example. (ARM is light CISC compared to the sort of true minimal RISC I'm talking about.)

GC is borderline but it feels like it might be one of those. In retrospect one giveaway is how easy it is to avoid almost all memory problems in C++ with RAII and STL.

Re: Swift Programming Language Evolution

#18

Post by zepto »

quux wrote: post #9
kris-s wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favorite thing about Swift is that is seems to get out of the way - and when it gets in the way it's usually with a nifty language feature (like the { $0 + $1 } closure syntax). I'm very excited for the future - between Go and Swift we now have two compiled fast languages that are almost as expressive as their slower dynamic/interpreted cousins. As an aside, I like that Apple is betting the farm on ARC. I wish I c…

I think they had to go with ARC due to the requirement that swift interoperates with Objective-C. If that hadn't been a constraint, yeah it would be an interesting decision.

No - they already had GC working with Objective-C and could have chosen it for swift if they had thought it was the best technology.

Here's a quote from Chris Lattner:

"GC also has several huge disadvantages that are usually glossed over: while it is true that modern GC's can provide high performance, they can only do that when they are granted much more memory than the process is actually using. Generally, unless you give the GC 3-4x more memory than is needed, you’ll get thrashing and incredibly poor performance. Additionally, since the sweep pass touches almost all RAM in the process, they tend to be very power inefficient (leading to reduced battery life).

I’m personally not interested in requiring a model that requires us to throw away a ton of perfectly good RAM to get an “simpler" programming model - particularly on that adds so many tradeoffs."

Re: Swift Programming Language Evolution

#19

Post by skrowl »

Someone1234 wrote: post #2

So Swift has been out awhile, what do people think of it? What other language would you compare it to (e.g. C#, C, C++, etc)? What about the libraries are they well laid out?

I tried it an pretty quickly went back to C#. The Apple-only nature was the major downside to me, so maybe these kinds of changes will help (assuming it sees wide adoption outside of Apple-land).

Check your local job boards, but if sell yourself as a Swift dev you're likely to be pigeon-holed into Apple-centric development for the foreseeable future.

With Apple sales and market share dropping like a rock in the last 12 months, that might not be the best position to put yourself in long term, career-wise.

Re: Swift Programming Language Evolution

#20

Post by beerwulf »

skrowl wrote: post #19
Someone1234 wrote: post #2

So Swift has been out awhile, what do people think of it? What other language would you compare it to (e.g. C#, C, C++, etc)? What about the libraries are they well laid out?

I tried it an pretty quickly went back to C#. The Apple-only nature was the major downside to me, so maybe these kinds of changes will help (assuming it sees wide adoption outside of Apple-land). Check your local job boards, but if sell yourself as a Swift dev you're likely to be pigeon-holed into Apple-centric development for the foreseeable future. With Apple sales and market share dropping like a rock in the last…

That's rich coming from a C# developer looking at mobile...
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