Live data from Hacker News

“Ask 'why' five times about every matter”

toyota-global.com

51–60 of 172 posts

Re: “Ask 'why' five times about every matter”

#51
post #40
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This method was invented by https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakichi_Toyoda . He died in 1930. I'm pretty sure that it predates even the word "startup" as it is currently used :)

I know that Eric Ries did not invent it, but he spread this idea with his highly popular book.

"The Toyota Way" (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0071392319/) probably had more of a hand in popularising it overall.

Re: “Ask 'why' five times about every matter”

#52

Why 5x? You should rather check when you reached the point that it will not happen again. Probably nobody is assigned to the task of installing filters in new machines and the next one will fail again...

The subsequent "layers" of reasons are fundamentally different.

For example, applying this to IT when analyzing the underlying causes of a particular downtime or security breach, usually, the first 2 layers of "why" are technical reasons that need to be adressed by the relevant specialists, the next 2 layers are failures of policy and procedures that need to be adressed by the managment chain, and around 5th "why" you get to weaknesses in the organization, company priorities and values which is slow to change but valuable info anyway.

Beyond that you just get to acknowledgements about how life is not perfect that is not actionable, but the first 4-5 layers of 'why' generally do lead to something that can be fixed given proper authority and motivation.

Re: “Ask 'why' five times about every matter”

#53

Or you could, you know, just figure out the root bloody cause of things. Can you package that message up and sell it as a consultancy?

Five whys is a form of simple, expedient root cause analysis. It's meant to be simple enough that you don't need a consultant to teach you how to do it.

That doesn't stop people from trying to take 'shortcuts' though, and those shortcuts are what consultants prey on.

Re: “Ask 'why' five times about every matter”

#54

Why 5x? You should rather check when you reached the point that it will not happen again. Probably nobody is assigned to the task of installing filters in new machines and the next one will fail again...

It's '5x' for two reasons: (a) that's a reasonable target for how many times you might have to ask it before you hit a root cause and (b) the 'five' is meant in a more metaphorical sense - you're meant to ask until you hit the root cause, but 'five' is catchier.

Re: “Ask 'why' five times about every matter”

#55

There seems to be some confusion/mis-interpretation about the 5 part. This is called 五回のなぜ in Japanese ("Go-kai no naze," or Why Five Times) and refers to root cause analysis. Of course the number of times the process need be repeated until the root cause is identified is variable. Five in this case is merely a jingly mnemonic, as Japanese people are so fond of.

jignly?

Re: “Ask 'why' five times about every matter”

#56

Why is there no filter on the intake? It was proposed, but declined by management as "too costly". Why is it too costly? Because cutting visible costs is perceived as saving money and therefore Good, whereas prevention and maintenance are perceived as unnecessary, because Bad Stuff Just Happens Regardless. Why? Because people suck at statistics ("if we can't eliminate a risk altogether, there's no point in trying, le…

I was also disappointed that the example list didn't get into people issues.

But it is not as simple as prevention vs. cost-cutting. In any place, there are thousands of things that might prevent a problem, but which of them are worth doing? One of many strategies for selecting the right precautions is an evolutionary one: fix the ones that caused problems in the past.

Re: “Ask 'why' five times about every matter”

#57

I survived several years in a Six Sigma organization. The Five Whys was one of my favorite 'tools' despite the 'Black Belts' dragging the process out much longer than required. I've never seen a methodology burn through more easel pads.

Why are the five whys one of your favorite tools?
Post reply on HN