Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Estonia's e-Residency Program

vice.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 44 posts

Re: Estonia's e-Residency Program

#31

Post by greenspot »

Don't get the hype. Still a Delaware Inc (C Corp) is better:

- Physical post address can be outside the US

- With Stripe Atlas you can get the bank account for the Delaware without visiting the US (possible with Estonia since few weeks)

- No need to wait months to get the e-residency and to get started (biggest bummer)

- Way larger ecosystem of tax guys and lawyers in the US => more competition => cheaper

- native language is English, so contracts are always and only in English; in Estonia there is one piece which must stay Estonian (don't remember which one)

- Larger ecosystem and English as main language makes it very easier to google answers to any tax or law related questions => huge knowledge base online, with Estonia there's just the documentation from the state

- Default to get VC money, the Estonian entity (OÜ) is not learned and investors are reluctant to put money in

- Estonia follows EU law which is compared to US law extremely consumer friendly, has strong consumer protection rights and super friendly to labor as well => EU law is over-regulating in general

- Cross-country relationships, like Delaware Inc is the holding and local entities are operational are more learned with local tax consultants than with Estonian entities => cheaper

- Delaware Inc.: no need to disclose MDs at the beginning, Estonian entity has full disclosure from day 1

Delaware is doing this business for decades, of course they must be better but I expected more from Estonia's e-residency.

Re: Estonia's e-Residency Program

#32

Post by xioxox »

daghandler wrote: post #23
mixedbit wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard that to start a company in UK, a UK bank account is required, and it is pretty difficult for non-residents to get.

To start a UK company, it is not necessary. To be in line with accounting compliance requirements, you need to be able to issue invoices from a UK company bank account. In order to obtain that, you need management to be based in the UK (i.e. be resident).

This link claims it may be possible to open an account without UK management (e.g. with HSBC), but I'm no expert here: https://www.rapidformations.co.uk/blog/business-bank-account...

Re: Estonia's e-Residency Program

#34

Post by zutnop »

zura wrote: post #27
zutnop wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you edko for good words! We're happy to help you :)

Is it possible to create a merchant account on Google Play store through your service + Estonia e-residency? (from the unsupported country).

Yes. More info for app developers here: https://www.leapin.eu/plan/appdeveloper

Re: Estonia's e-Residency Program

#35

Post by nordify »

greenspot wrote: post #31

Don't get the hype. Still a Delaware Inc (C Corp) is better: - Physical post address can be outside the US - With Stripe Atlas you can get the bank account for the Delaware without visiting the US (possible with Estonia since few weeks) - No need to wait months to get the e-residency and to get started (biggest bummer) - Way larger ecosystem of tax guys and lawyers in the US => more competition => cheaper - native la…

There is one benefit of incorporating in Estonia: 0% corporate tax on undistributed earnings.

Re: Estonia's e-Residency Program

#36

Post by zutnop »

greenspot wrote: post #31

Don't get the hype. Still a Delaware Inc (C Corp) is better: - Physical post address can be outside the US - With Stripe Atlas you can get the bank account for the Delaware without visiting the US (possible with Estonia since few weeks) - No need to wait months to get the e-residency and to get started (biggest bummer) - Way larger ecosystem of tax guys and lawyers in the US => more competition => cheaper - native la…

Good information! As I see it from my point of view:

Timelines:

Does anyone have any actual info on the Atlas timelines/waiting lists? I haven't seen a single success story/blog post discussing this. Atlas FAQ states 2 weeks to get up and running (tax ID and payment acceptance), but when asked about waiting time, their answer is "We don't have an exact timeline for adding new users, but we'd love to chat more about your use case".

e-Residency (from application to card delivery) should take 2-3 weeks. Not months.

Taxes:

The difference in the level of complexity of US vs Estonian tax rules can't be described in words :). That's why you will need the huge number of tax advisers/lawyers in US, and you'll pay them.

I'm not really sure any person, who's not a resident of US and is not living there, would benefit from having a body with tax residency there, if there aren't other compelling reasons. For example, you would do this if your funding source is coming from there, because funding is better than no funding, no matter the taxes.

Funding/holding:

US has a huge advantage here, clearly!

Transparency:

Estonia is playing for total transparency and an efficiency heaven. If you want to do shady offshore stuff, then this is not for you. #nopanamapapers

TL;DR: Starting and new VC funded startup or a big corporation -> US. Starting a one-man online business (and currently not a tax resident of US) -> Estonia!

Re: Estonia's e-Residency Program

#37

Post by zutnop »

nordify wrote: post #30

Until the Estonian e-resident can open a bank account remotely (likely later this year when the new law goes into effect), the residency is mostly an interesting curiosity, not much more.

Until then, it makes for a perfect summer holiday location (with a 30 minute visit to a cosy bank office).

#1 https://www.lonelyplanet.com/travel-tips-and-articles/best-v...

Re: Estonia's e-Residency Program

#38

Post by ghock »

zutnop wrote: post #26
ghock wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the postal address is annoying, I think (currently) having to go there to open a bank account is a bigger deal, since it will be hard to open one anywhere else. Even if you can get a bank account, many payment providers want you to have your business, bank account and residency in the same country (something e-residency won't do). So while I think the are moving in the right direction, it's still reminds me of…

In short: 1) law change for allowing bank account opening without physically coming to Estonia is in the government and should be in force by Autumn 2) our customers are successfully using different payment providers 3) LLC is the "de facto" incorporation type for our customers 4) Becoming an e-resident won't make you an Estonian tax resident, so you don't have to worry about your worldwide income. But when you start…

1) Yes, still have to see what the results are in terms of KYC etc. though.

3) What I mean is that they should allow companies to identify themselves as a LLC/Limited instead of a OÜ so your customers see "Webshop LLC" instead of "Webshop OÜ". While it might not be feasible to enact in Estonia, some jurisdictions do this.

5/6) It's not that I can't go to Estonia, it's that I won't because it's not very high up on my list. If it was cheap, easy and/or I had some special reason (like a conference, which there also are plenty of) that might move it higher, but I'm not going to go out of my way just to find out when there are plenty of other places on that list. Might sound harsh, but that is how it is.

Re: Estonia's e-Residency Program

#39

Post by greenspot »

zutnop wrote: post #36
greenspot wrote: post #31

Don't get the hype. Still a Delaware Inc (C Corp) is better: - Physical post address can be outside the US - With Stripe Atlas you can get the bank account for the Delaware without visiting the US (possible with Estonia since few weeks) - No need to wait months to get the e-residency and to get started (biggest bummer) - Way larger ecosystem of tax guys and lawyers in the US => more competition => cheaper - native la…

Good information! As I see it from my point of view: Timelines: Does anyone have any actual info on the Atlas timelines/waiting lists? I haven't seen a single success story/blog post discussing this. Atlas FAQ states 2 weeks to get up and running (tax ID and payment acceptance), but when asked about waiting time, their answer is "We don't have an exact timeline for adding new users, but we'd love to chat more about y…

Thanks for your reply.

> Does anyone have any actual info on the Atlas timelines/waiting lists?

Without Atlas you get a Delaware instantly from one of the many registries, Atlas is only needed if you want to get the bank account without going to US (something which Estonia can't provide yet (I learned in another reply from you))

> e-Residency (from application to card delivery) should take 2-3 weeks. Not months.

Check the forums, rarely people get it in few weeks

> The difference in the level of complexity of US vs Estonian tax rules can't be described in words :).

Do not agree. At the end of the day you need just one tax consultant. And one is enough also for the US. And they are easy to get in the US. And knowledge online is massive, check this for Estonia.

Besides, taxes can get quickly complicated and messy, especially if you are a resident in another country than your corporation. And because of your local tax regulations and not the one's from the country of the entity you need good tax people who are familiar with your country-of-entity-and-country-of-residency combination.

> Estonia is playing for total transparency and an efficiency heaven. If you want to do shady offshore stuff, then this is not for you. #nopanamapapers

Sorry but this is getting bold now. There're many totally legal use cases where a non-disclosure at the beginning is favorable. Still you can't do anything illegal, authorities will get you with an US corp as well, it's just about that with on Estonian OÜ everybody can google what you are doing.

> US. Starting a one-man online business (and currently not a tax resident of US) -> Estonia!

Sorry have to disagree here again. If you want to start an one-man-show then the Delaware LLC is more favorable, even easier than the C Corp. There are enough online resources giving further explanations.

I don't want to bash your ambitions and I like that Estonia is way more digital and advanced (or tries to) than other nations but I have still problems to see any added value.

Re: Estonia's e-Residency Program

#40

Post by zutnop »

greenspot wrote: post #39
zutnop wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good information! As I see it from my point of view: Timelines: Does anyone have any actual info on the Atlas timelines/waiting lists? I haven't seen a single success story/blog post discussing this. Atlas FAQ states 2 weeks to get up and running (tax ID and payment acceptance), but when asked about waiting time, their answer is "We don't have an exact timeline for adding new users, but we'd love to chat more about y…

Thanks for your reply. > Does anyone have any actual info on the Atlas timelines/waiting lists? Without Atlas you get a Delaware instantly from one of the many registries, Atlas is only needed if you want to get the bank account without going to US (something which Estonia can't provide yet (I learned in another reply from you)) > e-Residency (from application to card delivery) should take 2-3 weeks. Not months. Chec…

> Check the forums, rarely people get it in few weeks

These posts are probably from summer of 2015 when the online ordering was launched and the operations didn't manage to keep up with the waiting list.

> Do not agree. At the end of the day you need just one tax consultant.

If you're running a one-man show, then the sum of costs matters a lot. Simpler framework -> less help needed -> less hours on the invoice -> money saved. I haven't ever needed a tax consultant for my own undertakings, but then again I'm an Estonian and I don't have the tax-residency-in-another-country angle. But as we are talking generally, without specific examples, then let's agree that:

1) one definitely needs to look into this subject before deciding on the best course of action when starting a business anywhere (do a total cost of ownership for the next 3 years, etc.),

2) this area needs modernization as more and more people are moving around the globe every year.

> Sorry but this is getting now bold.

My intention wasn't to imply that US is for shady offshore stuff. Or that offshore/nominee stuff needs to always be shady. I only wanted to say, that if you happen to be the guy wanting to do shady offshore stuff, then Estonia is not the place :).

> Sorry have to disagree here again.

Let's agree to disagree for now, and let's re-evaluate our opinions in a few years when these new programs have had a change to make their stand.

Br, Erko

Post reply on HN