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Why Suburbia Sucks

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Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#271

Post by neffy »

Semiapies wrote: post #192
Retric wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scale is debatable, but there is a lot more evidence for this than you might think. It's also a lot more than just gas, paint, water pipes, sodder, even fillings also made significant contributions. IMO, scale is not that important as the preverbial straw that broke the camels back is important, but so are all the others that get to that point. A leaning disability on it's own might not lead to violence, but it d…

My point is that I'm not concerned about what I, you, or other laymen think about the science, here. I'm concerned about what the scientific community thinks. The scientific community does not accept the claimed social effects for lead. It's quite literally fringe science.

Well, speaking as a completely non-representative sample (size 1) of the scientific community, I thought the evidence was fairly convincing - they looked at the different rates as a function of when lead was removed from petrol which varied considerably at the country level.

However I did also flag that they hadn't considered video gaming as an alternative possibility (but that's just a private hypothesis of mine). Certainly not fringe science though.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#272

Post by nikdaheratik »

arkades wrote: post #41
CameronBanga wrote: post #20

I'm trying to find words to describe my distain for this article, but I can't think of anything that isn't seen as a direct attack on the author, which isn't my goal. Basically America is bad because we had space for cars when they were invented? There are plenty of places in America where you can get by without a car. I live in "suburbia". A small city of 30,000 in Indiana called Valparaiso. We have a vibrant downto…

> Basically America is bad because we had space for cars when they were invented? I think you did an admirable job of expressing my source of dissatisfaction with the article. That, and the author interjecting his personal preferences as architectural dogma - his passage about "No Street Enclosure" was very much of "I grew up in the tight spaces of old European cities, therefore preferring the tight spaces of old Eur…

I disagree with pretty much every conclusion made by the author, and yet agree that there is some truth there as well.

The bottom line is that all of this suburban sprawl is a result of the extra land available in the U.S. combined with the automobile and combined with the growing middle class. The lack of municipal support for public transport is the other biggy. You can't build dense if everyone has to have a car to get around, and if the best you can do is a mediocre bus service that caters to the old and poor, you're not going to choose to build dense.

t may not have been the best idea long term, but the choice for developers at the time wasn't "build a nice Euro model town square" vs. "Build a sprawling suburban mess". It was "build in this empty field" or "pay alot more money to tear down these old buildings and put up apartments to replace them". And the biggest money to be made wasn't in building up.

The only good news is that mostly people have gotten to the point where they're not willing to travel any further out, and so more new development is happening by building up instead.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#273

Post by abalashov »

mattmcknight wrote: post #270
hasenj wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No no, it works differently. The concept of weekly shopping is completely alien and baffling to people living there. This is the way it works: Your wife/mom/yourself want to cook pasta today, but some ingredient is lacking (say, tomatoes). So you go to the store and get some tomatoes. On your way you might grab two or three other items, but that's it. There's no such thing as weekly shopping.

Yeah, hard for me to imagine, as we do a lot more that get ingredients for dinner. Packing school and work lunches, everything we drink, breakfasts, paper goods, cleaning supplies, personal care items, in addition to food, there's usually too much to fit in one large.cart.

Corner groceries in Europe have a surprisingly large variety. You may not be able to get everything you get at Costco, but you'd be surprised how much you can get, a little bit at a time.

I spent a few months living in Berlin and routinely shopped at places like Kaiser's and Netto. I never had any problems with product selection or diversity.

But yes, there are other differences in consumption patterns and psychology, too. As a general statement, everything in W. Europe is more minimalistic, since there isn't so much room to just store "stuff". It's hard to describe exactly what you would buy instead or what you'd do differently without knowing you closely, but I think you'd find it's a completely survivable adaptation. :-)

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#274

Post by abalashov »

mattmcknight wrote: post #268
bryanlarsen wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"weekly shopping". There's your difference. In those places, you do 5-10 minutes of shopping 7 days a week, instead of 60 minutes of shopping once a week. Those corner grocery stores are tiny, you can be in and out quick.

I really doubt any daily shopping can be done in 5 minutes. Most NYC grocery stores are very busy. Going to the store every day seems ridiculously inefficient, and corner stores rarely have everything, forcing multiple stops.

Corner stores may not, but there are plenty of compact grocery stores in Europe that do. And yes, the five minutes should not be taken literally. On the other hand, if it's on your way home--which is usually the idea--you don't need to park, walk from your car to the store, go through a lengthy check-out with lots of items, hoof it all back to your car, get back out of the parking lot, etc.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#275

Post by themgt »

abalashov wrote: post #143
themgt wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, I noticed that too. I was hoping he'd just subconsciously lifted some phrases, but the amount of the overall similar content/structure and the specificity of phrases do really kinda push it to the level of plagiarism.

Hi, author here! I am very familiar with Kunstler's talk and do cite it from time to time, but it's hard for me to see the basis for the notion that I ripped it off. Kunstler is hardly the only one to make New Urbanist architectural talking points or to formulate them in the way that he does, notwithstanding his rather specific sense of humour. That said, I just rewatched Kunstler's talk (for the first time in maybe…

Thanks for adding the cite. To me that's enough to put this in the clear. It is a great summary of our problems here in the USA.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#276

Post by brightball »

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #269
cloudjacker wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You miss the idea, no fact, that the people in the city scoff at the idea of considering Olive Garden a fancy meal

Then people in the city are assholes for scoffing at the poor, because nobody in middle-class and up suburbia thinks that Olive Garden is fancy.

Funny story. I'm from a smallish town with an average income of about 40k / year and it was MAJOR news when they finally got an Olive Garden. Apparently there is some strict criteria that Olive Garden uses to place their restaurants and whenever the city finally qualified it was a huge thing for economic planners, all over the paper. My dad called to tell me about it.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#277

Post by abalashov »

themgt wrote: post #275
abalashov wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, author here! I am very familiar with Kunstler's talk and do cite it from time to time, but it's hard for me to see the basis for the notion that I ripped it off. Kunstler is hardly the only one to make New Urbanist architectural talking points or to formulate them in the way that he does, notwithstanding his rather specific sense of humour. That said, I just rewatched Kunstler's talk (for the first time in maybe…

Thanks for adding the cite. To me that's enough to put this in the clear. It is a great summary of our problems here in the USA.

Cool, thanks for making me consider it. It hadn't even occurred to me.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#278

Post by hasenj »

mattmcknight wrote: post #270
hasenj wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No no, it works differently. The concept of weekly shopping is completely alien and baffling to people living there. This is the way it works: Your wife/mom/yourself want to cook pasta today, but some ingredient is lacking (say, tomatoes). So you go to the store and get some tomatoes. On your way you might grab two or three other items, but that's it. There's no such thing as weekly shopping.

Yeah, hard for me to imagine, as we do a lot more that get ingredients for dinner. Packing school and work lunches, everything we drink, breakfasts, paper goods, cleaning supplies, personal care items, in addition to food, there's usually too much to fit in one large.cart.

There's absolutely no reason to buy everything at once other than habit. It's not as though you run out of food and cleaning supplies and washroom items all at the same time.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#279

Post by hasenj »

abalashov wrote: post #274
mattmcknight wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really doubt any daily shopping can be done in 5 minutes. Most NYC grocery stores are very busy. Going to the store every day seems ridiculously inefficient, and corner stores rarely have everything, forcing multiple stops.

Corner stores may not, but there are plenty of compact grocery stores in Europe that do. And yes, the five minutes should not be taken literally. On the other hand, if it's on your way home--which is usually the idea--you don't need to park, walk from your car to the store, go through a lengthy check-out with lots of items, hoof it all back to your car, get back out of the parking lot, etc.

I don't know about Europe but the in the Middle East you usually would just go straight to the shop keeper and ask for the items you want and he would have someone grab them for you.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#280

Post by TulliusCicero »

dang wrote: post #256
TulliusCicero wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your completely un-sourced article has nothing to do with the OP article Yes, you noticed that I was addressing something in your comment rather than the OP, good job on noticing the obvious. > which detests the option of people living in suburbs. He does not, in fact, detest the option of people living in suburbs. He detests American suburban design. I'm sure he would love to live in a more European-style suburb,…

This comment breaks the HN guidelines by being uncivil ('good job on noticing the obvious', 'Wow, way to completely misunderstand'). Please edit this kind of thing out of your comments here. We want thoughtful, substantive discourse on HN, and nothing corrodes that more than personal abrasiveness. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

Understood. Apologies for my tone.

Actually it appears I can't edit my comment anymore.

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