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Why Suburbia Sucks

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Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#241

Post by maxerickson »

tptacek wrote: post #235
abalashov wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should know better than to use words like "any" with programmers, it's true. In response, I started compiling a list, but then I realised I can't think of a counterexample. "Any" might be just about right. Do you know of one? I'm thinking of places like Indianapolis, Fairfax, Macon (GA), almost all college towns I've been to...

The one that sprang immediately to mind was Ann Arbor, Michigan, because I used to live there. But I can come up with more, if you like. Your argument is that mid-sized US cities with densities comparable to European cities are rare, and that this causes pathology. That sounds intuitively defensible, because America definitely has more space to play with for its cities than Europe. But let's try to be specific. What'…

Biking around Utrecht is a lot more fun than biking around Ann Arbor.

The train to Amsterdam is better than the train to Chicago too (cheaper, faster, more frequent).

It's a bigger city than Ann Arbor, with about twice the density.

I think there are probably enough differences in land use planning that you won't quite be able to have a model city for Europe.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#242

Post by tptacek »

maxerickson wrote: post #241
tptacek wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one that sprang immediately to mind was Ann Arbor, Michigan, because I used to live there. But I can come up with more, if you like. Your argument is that mid-sized US cities with densities comparable to European cities are rare, and that this causes pathology. That sounds intuitively defensible, because America definitely has more space to play with for its cities than Europe. But let's try to be specific. What'…

Biking around Utrecht is a lot more fun than biking around Ann Arbor. The train to Amsterdam is better than the train to Chicago too (cheaper, faster, more frequent). It's a bigger city than Ann Arbor, with about twice the density. I think there are probably enough differences in land use planning that you won't quite be able to have a model city for Europe.

The train from Ann Arbor to Chicago? The nearest major metro to Ann Arbor is Detroit, not Chicago. Utrecht is just 30 miles away from Amsterdam. A2 is 250 miles from Chicago.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#243

Post by maxerickson »

tptacek wrote: post #242
maxerickson wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Biking around Utrecht is a lot more fun than biking around Ann Arbor. The train to Amsterdam is better than the train to Chicago too (cheaper, faster, more frequent). It's a bigger city than Ann Arbor, with about twice the density. I think there are probably enough differences in land use planning that you won't quite be able to have a model city for Europe.

The train from Ann Arbor to Chicago? The nearest major metro to Ann Arbor is Detroit, not Chicago. Utrecht is just 30 miles away from Amsterdam. A2 is 250 miles from Chicago.

Sure, but you'd drive there.

The point of that was that it is connected to a rail network in a way that doesn't exist in Michigan.

Also, when I lived in Ann Arbor, we never cared about going to Detroit itself.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#244

Post by tptacek »

maxerickson wrote: post #243
tptacek wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The train from Ann Arbor to Chicago? The nearest major metro to Ann Arbor is Detroit, not Chicago. Utrecht is just 30 miles away from Amsterdam. A2 is 250 miles from Chicago.

Sure, but you'd drive there. The point of that was that it is connected to a rail network in a way that doesn't exist in Michigan. Also, when I lived in Ann Arbor, we never cared about going to Detroit itself.

Utrecht is about as far from Amsterdam as Orland Park is from Chicago. Train connectivity between Orland and Chicago: also pretty frequent and reliable.

It's a little unfair to compare that particular run to the entire state of Michigan, which would be the 20th largest country in Europe if admitted to the EU, just behind Iceland and ahead of Hungary.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#245

Post by maxerickson »

tptacek wrote: post #244
maxerickson wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but you'd drive there. The point of that was that it is connected to a rail network in a way that doesn't exist in Michigan. Also, when I lived in Ann Arbor, we never cared about going to Detroit itself.

Utrecht is about as far from Amsterdam as Orland Park is from Chicago. Train connectivity between Orland and Chicago: also pretty frequent and reliable. It's a little unfair to compare that particular run to the entire state of Michigan , which would be the 20th largest country in Europe if admitted to the EU, just behind Iceland and ahead of Hungary.

That's fair, I wasn't in NL long enough to really get a sense for distance. Took the train to Amsterdam once.

(we're both making some edits)

I think the higher density is part of why Europe seems to have more nice cities though. I actually kind of joked about that while I was there, that the publicly owned land in Michigan is roughly the size of the Netherlands (the national and state forests).

With high density, if you "need" cityscape you can just build a rail to where it makes sense to have the city.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#246

Post by abalashov »

tptacek wrote: post #237
abalashov wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent my middle and high school years in Athens, GA. It would not ordinarily be seen as a target for sprawl-bashing, given its ostensibly compact nature. And it's true, the downtown and campus are fused into something fairly livable. However, as usual, 90% of the population doesn't live in that tiny core, but instead in the same kind of low-density layout one can find anywhere in America. While I haven't been to An…

I know Athens solely from REM and Elephant 6 music. I've never been there. Saline and Ypsi are suburbs of Ann Arbor. Ann Arbor itself is mostly walkable, tree-lined, mixed-use, and connected by public transportation. More than 90% of the population of Ann Arbor lives in Ann Arbor and not Ypsi or Saline. :) What are the rest of the variables? I'd like to drive to specificity. If there's a set of US midsized cities tha…

I'm not sure I've ever seen a midsized US city that defies my characterisations. I've seen plenty of cases where something progressive-sounding got built within them, but it was an island, unconnected and irrelevant. One mixed-use-sounding shopping strip with attached condos does not sprawl unmake.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#247

Post by Retric »

Semiapies wrote: post #192
Retric wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scale is debatable, but there is a lot more evidence for this than you might think. It's also a lot more than just gas, paint, water pipes, sodder, even fillings also made significant contributions. IMO, scale is not that important as the preverbial straw that broke the camels back is important, but so are all the others that get to that point. A leaning disability on it's own might not lead to violence, but it d…

My point is that I'm not concerned about what I, you, or other laymen think about the science, here. I'm concerned about what the scientific community thinks. The scientific community does not accept the claimed social effects for lead. It's quite literally fringe science.

Can you find any counter arguments other than just calling this fringe? I mean we did ban lead gas exit so presumably it was known to be harmful.

I accept it's not my specialty, but when you have a well known and reasonable method of action and supporting research it's a little harder to just dismiss.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#248

Post by abalashov »

gozur88 wrote: post #208
mooreds wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kids where I live do roam around the neighborhood, at least to some extent. I see them out and about.

Not where I live. My brother has a house in a neighborhood that's full of young families, but if you walked through it you'd think it was a retirement community - not a kid in sight. All the children are carefully shuttled from one supervised activity to another. I'm not really sure why that is. Crime is almost nonexistent, and the weather is nice.

That's by and large what I've seen in Atlanta as well.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#249

Post by abalashov »

update wrote: post #74
hasenj wrote: post #51

One thing I can't fathom about cities in North America is this sharp division between residential areas and shopping areas. I'm by no means a world expert, but the places I've been to (Middle East where I grew up, Japan which I visited a couple of times) don't have this sharp distinction. Sure, there are residential areas and there are shopping areas, but every residential area will have many small shops here and the…

I live in a newer U.S. city and this couldn't be any further from the truth. e.g. Walmart is < 2 miles away.

I don't see how that rectifies the essential grievance. A Walmart ~ < 2 miles away is substantially similar to a Walmart 10 miles away for all intents and purposes. And, as I mentioned in my post, even if it were 0.25 mi away, there are all kinds of artifices in suburbia that commonly stop one walking there.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#250

Post by abalashov »

lr4444lr wrote: post #167
pyre wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm happy to give up grime, drug trafficking, and violence for an internet tongue lashing. This statement assumes that if you did not make the choice that you have you would be assured to have these things happening right outside your door.

Sure. I imagine that many families moved to Sandy Hook, CT for safety and security. There's no guarantee in life. There's also relative measure: some of the old timers where I live feel the neighborhood has "gone downhill". Some people are frankly just happier living in a bustling and unstable place where they simply accept they can't let their kids go outside unsupervised until they're 18. I believe we'll generally…

They in fact suck in his opinion.

Well, yes. And you, too, can have a blog!

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