Why Suburbia Sucks • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#201

Post by abalashov » Sun, May 08, 2016, 11:24 PM UTC

Zach_the_Lizard wrote: post #122

JPKab wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in two different environments: A small, late 1800's built, pedestrian friendly town in a rural county, and later after moving to another house, in the countryside in the same county. In both places, there was a lot of economic diversity. Kids who lived in trailers socialized and spent the nights out with kids who lived in old houses, and vice versa. Something I've noticed about people like you whose entire…

>The most evil part of it all is the economic segregation. My kids currently go to school with other upper middle class kids. Nobody lives in trailers in their school, or even apartments. No economic diversity translates to minimal racial diversity. It's terrible. That's by design. The suburbs have many laws built to enforce 1950s racial segregation without mentioning race. E.g. your house must be large by law, meani…

The irony, at least here in Atlanta, is that crappy car-only suburbs have become considerably more affordable than the re-gentrifying inner city. For what I'm paying here in Midtown, I could get myself a palace 30 minutes out, if I wanted to live the way I described in my article.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#202

Post by antisthenes » Sun, May 08, 2016, 11:29 PM UTC

santaclaus wrote: post #24

rpedela wrote: post #6

For just one small example of many: life in a subdivision cul-de-sac stops children exploring and becoming conversant with the wider world around them because it tethers their social lives and activities to their busy parents’ willingness to drive them somewhere. There’s literally nowhere for them to go. What is this post talking about? I grew up on a cul-de-sac, and I was always outside playing with my friends. When…

I certainly prefer to live in an urban environment as an adult, but growing up my anecdotal experience was very different than that described in the article. As a kid in the burbs in the 90s, we'd roam all over the place. Hop on the bikes and ride downtown, tool around greenway close to the hood, take the bus to the mall, etc.

It's almost as if though there's a pattern in your activities that naturally gravitates towards more urban areas like 'downtown', 'hood', and 'the mall' ...

So the article is exactly correct.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#203

Post by mrcsparker » Sun, May 08, 2016, 11:30 PM UTC

Zach_the_Lizard wrote: post #116

increment_i wrote: post #18

Suburbia exists because people want a quiet, relatively safe place for their kids to grow up. I didn't realize this until I had children myself. I remember reaching my teenage years and cursing the dull, boring, culturally bankrupt suburbian neighborhood I grew up in. I left the minute it became feasible. Fast forward to now, and I'm right back in the 'burbs, in a house where my kids have access to safe streets, park…

>Suburbia exists because people want a quiet, relatively safe place for their kids to grow up. No, that's not why modern sprawling suburbia exists. For most of American history, cities have been home to the middle class and wealthy. Not having to travel far for work or entertainment is a luxury, and middle class and wealthy Americans took advantage of it just like their world counterparts. The Bronx, for instance, wa…

Houston is a lot closer to what everyone seems to claim that they want: it is pretty easy to live close to work with small local businesses that service the local community. The heat keeps the city from being walkable.

People from other cities tend to complain about the local of zoning. Zoned cities usually seem very organized and lack the funky house-business-house layout that Houston has. I prefer the lack of zoning, but it isn't for everyone.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#204

Post by hasenj » Sun, May 08, 2016, 11:31 PM UTC

mattmcknight wrote: post #158

hasenj wrote: post #51

One thing I can't fathom about cities in North America is this sharp division between residential areas and shopping areas. I'm by no means a world expert, but the places I've been to (Middle East where I grew up, Japan which I visited a couple of times) don't have this sharp distinction. Sure, there are residential areas and there are shopping areas, but every residential area will have many small shops here and the…

Walking to the grocery store sounds ridiculous to me. Even when I could see one from my house I never walked there to do the weekly shopping. I typically buy more than I can carry. I guess it depends on whether you have a big family or not...

No no, it works differently. The concept of weekly shopping is completely alien and baffling to people living there.

This is the way it works:

Your wife/mom/yourself want to cook pasta today, but some ingredient is lacking (say, tomatoes). So you go to the store and get some tomatoes.

On your way you might grab two or three other items, but that's it.

There's no such thing as weekly shopping.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#205

Post by abalashov » Sun, May 08, 2016, 11:31 PM UTC

criddell wrote: post #145

gaur wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hope they can safely reach the age where they can go off and experience the adventure of the big cities Conversely, I feel grateful that my parents chose to raise me in a dense urban area, instead of moving out to some suburban hellhole in an attempt to give me a bubble-wrapped existence. I mostly took care of my own transportation to and from public school from the age of 10 onward (walking or public transit), a…

If you let a ten year old use transit themselves today, there's a decent chance parents will get a visit from the police. I think it's ridiculous, but that's how it seems to be.

Indeed; we learned this the hard way when I was growing up, in a graduate student housing complex consisting mainly of foreigners.

The one thing that dozens of nationalities could all agree on was their presumption that their ten year-olds can get home from school and fend for themselves for a few hours. Everybody knew everybody (quite literally), there were always adults out in the enclosed backyard, and there were periodic security patrols. I could think of few safer places to leave a child home alone. Until the harassment from the police started, it would have never occurred to any of us that this constitutes child neglect.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#206

Post by Zach_the_Lizard » Sun, May 08, 2016, 11:35 PM UTC

abalashov wrote: post #201

Zach_the_Lizard wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The most evil part of it all is the economic segregation. My kids currently go to school with other upper middle class kids. Nobody lives in trailers in their school, or even apartments. No economic diversity translates to minimal racial diversity. It's terrible. That's by design. The suburbs have many laws built to enforce 1950s racial segregation without mentioning race. E.g. your house must be large by law, meani…

The irony, at least here in Atlanta, is that crappy car-only suburbs have become considerably more affordable than the re-gentrifying inner city. For what I'm paying here in Midtown, I could get myself a palace 30 minutes out, if I wanted to live the way I described in my article.

It's true in most places now. The suburbs are getting poorer as cities are now too difficult to build in and inner suburbs won't allow density, so the poor must go out as gentrification happens. The problem is transportation costs are very high in car centric areas vs. in cities so the poor get even fewer job opportunities.

We could easily solve this by removing the 1950s zoning laws as the poor would not move far, housing prices would be lower, and more walkable development would occur.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#207

Post by tptacek » Sun, May 08, 2016, 11:38 PM UTC

vasilipupkin wrote: post #132

TulliusCicero wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fast forward to now, and I'm right back in the 'burbs, in a house where my kids have access to safe streets, parks, and decent schools. You seem to be confused. The article is saying that American suburbs are particularly poorly designed, not that suburbs as a general rule are terrible. Here is Gröbenzell, a suburb just west of Munich that's surrounded by farmland: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Gr%C3%B6benzell,…

Don't forget that US is really big and has lots of different types of suburbs. For example, Chicago has quite a few dense walkable suburbs with easy access to public transport

Chicago has basically two of those. :)

But if you relax the public transportation constraint, I agree: the list of Chicago suburbs that defy most of the characterizations in this post is pretty large.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#208

Post by gozur88 » Sun, May 08, 2016, 11:40 PM UTC

mooreds wrote: post #13

jedmeyers wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And nowadays, even if you live in an apartment building in the city, there is no way your child is going to roam around and explore alone.

Kids where I live do roam around the neighborhood, at least to some extent. I see them out and about.

Not where I live. My brother has a house in a neighborhood that's full of young families, but if you walked through it you'd think it was a retirement community - not a kid in sight. All the children are carefully shuttled from one supervised activity to another.

I'm not really sure why that is. Crime is almost nonexistent, and the weather is nice.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#209

Post by Zach_the_Lizard » Sun, May 08, 2016, 11:41 PM UTC

mrcsparker wrote: post #203

Zach_the_Lizard wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Suburbia exists because people want a quiet, relatively safe place for their kids to grow up. No, that's not why modern sprawling suburbia exists. For most of American history, cities have been home to the middle class and wealthy. Not having to travel far for work or entertainment is a luxury, and middle class and wealthy Americans took advantage of it just like their world counterparts. The Bronx, for instance, wa…

Houston is a lot closer to what everyone seems to claim that they want: it is pretty easy to live close to work with small local businesses that service the local community. The heat keeps the city from being walkable. People from other cities tend to complain about the local of zoning. Zoned cities usually seem very organized and lack the funky house-business-house layout that Houston has. I prefer the lack of zonin…

Houston could be walkable, despite the heat. Its lack of zoning means mixed use is more frequent, but Houston has parking requirements, setback requirements, minimum lot sizes, max floor area ratio (which defines the max density), etc. The CBD however has no requirement for parking now IIRC so it will become more walkable over time.

Houston will never be Manhattan, but it could be way better.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#210

Post by _delirium » Sun, May 08, 2016, 11:46 PM UTC

mahyarm wrote: post #112

increment_i wrote: post #18

Suburbia exists because people want a quiet, relatively safe place for their kids to grow up. I didn't realize this until I had children myself. I remember reaching my teenage years and cursing the dull, boring, culturally bankrupt suburbian neighborhood I grew up in. I left the minute it became feasible. Fast forward to now, and I'm right back in the 'burbs, in a house where my kids have access to safe streets, park…

Quiet safe urban areas actually exists in large amounts of Germany, while the only real urban areas that exist in the USA are in SF and NYC. SF & NYC have a sizable homeless population, poop on the streets and similar with large amounts of traffic. Suburban city centers attract the homeless and have a large amount of traffic because everyone has to drive in. German urban areas tend to barely have any road traffic for…

> the only real urban areas that exist in the USA are in SF and NYC

I wonder where I was living then, since I've lived in several urbanized parts of the U.S., where I walked or took public transportation everywhere, but have never lived in either of those two cities. :-)