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Why Suburbia Sucks

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111–120 of 298 posts

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where my kids have access to safe streets, parks, and decent schools This all used to be easily achievable in urban neighborhoods. The elephant in the room people don't want to acknowledge is that suburbia has mostly been a way to flee from and exclude social decay. This is why people freak out about public transit to a lot of neighborhoods. The requirement of multiple car ownership in an area is a deliberately con…

Bingo. Look at the re-conquest of New York City, which follows pretty exactly the pattern you mentioned. "All private schools" isn't even necessary de jure if you can do it de facto via magnet or charter schools and theoretically open neighborhood schools targeted at particular areas.

Yes, but also pushing the more troubled denizens out of the city by letting the "affordable" housing stock diminish through less government intervention, which I'm among the admit to say has been a great help in its turnaround. The U.S. is a big country, and there's no reason why over 2.5% of the entire population should crowd themselves into its second most expensive city, many of whom aren't and won't ever be working jobs in industries that can't be found elsewhere in the country.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#112

Suburbia exists because people want a quiet, relatively safe place for their kids to grow up. I didn't realize this until I had children myself. I remember reaching my teenage years and cursing the dull, boring, culturally bankrupt suburbian neighborhood I grew up in. I left the minute it became feasible. Fast forward to now, and I'm right back in the 'burbs, in a house where my kids have access to safe streets, park…

Quiet safe urban areas actually exists in large amounts of Germany, while the only real urban areas that exist in the USA are in SF and NYC. SF & NYC have a sizable homeless population, poop on the streets and similar with large amounts of traffic. Suburban city centers attract the homeless and have a large amount of traffic because everyone has to drive in.

German urban areas tend to barely have any road traffic for the density since almost nobody owns a car, a quiet train that passes by once in a while and most things closing at 8pm latest. Need some medicine? The pharmacy is a 5 minute walk away. Board the metro in another 5 minute walk, get to work in 20m. There are barely any homeless or poop on the streets for the most part because they are actually put in social housing and programs (or jail) if the police find them doing that.

You tend to have about 10 square miles of urban area, with 7 story buildings as far as the eye can see and then a sudden drop off into small villages that are everywhere. You can rent or buy large 5 room 2000sqft apartments in these places and actually raise the typical 2.5 kid household in them. In the center of the block there are little common parks with a playground for small kids to play.

If you want your car and SFH lifestyle, the entire city is then surrounded by wooded areas with small villages that are everywhere. You can live in a small village and drive into work into the city about 30m away for fairly cheap. The villages themselves have small urban centers you can then walk into. And some of them have trains, so you can just take the train into the city if you want.

My experience is only with Germany, but I'm guessing there are many other places such as Barcelona, Italy or the UK that is designed like this.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#113
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Reconquest' of city's has far more components than most people assume. Gay community who mostly don't need good schools. Bad traffic to make suburbs less appealing. Video Games to keep young people entertained and not out damaging the community. Vastly reduced Lead levels to reduce violence. Reduced pollution to make city's livable. etc etc. Even the loss of manufacturing and retail jobs has been a net gain for city…

> Vastly reduced Lead levels to reduce violence Can you expand on that statement? Do you imply bullets (as in higher prices and gun control) when you refer to Lead or literally the reduction of the metal Lead in paint, etc. And how is it linked to violence?

Literal elemental lead.

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2016/02/lead-exposure...

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#114
post #97

Suburbia allows you to ensure that your neighbors are able to afford to buy, rather than rent, a minimum quantity of land & construction (and usually therefore have a large amount of their net worth locked up in the value of that property), that they can afford transportation to and from wherever the nearest commercial center is, tends to limit population flows, and insulates the neighborhood from anyone who doesn't…

That's a really long-winded way of saying redlining ;-).

"Redlining" is a specific practice that has been banned for decades.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#115
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Reconquest' of city's has far more components than most people assume. Gay community who mostly don't need good schools. Bad traffic to make suburbs less appealing. Video Games to keep young people entertained and not out damaging the community. Vastly reduced Lead levels to reduce violence. Reduced pollution to make city's livable. etc etc. Even the loss of manufacturing and retail jobs has been a net gain for city…

> Vastly reduced Lead levels to reduce violence Can you expand on that statement? Do you imply bullets (as in higher prices and gun control) when you refer to Lead or literally the reduction of the metal Lead in paint, etc. And how is it linked to violence?

There's been a lot of research lately on the connection between lead, brain impairment, and violence.

One quick example, claiming cities in the 1920s that switched to lead pipes saw ~25% increase in homicides vs those that didn't. http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/jfeigenbaum/files/feigenbau...

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#116

Suburbia exists because people want a quiet, relatively safe place for their kids to grow up. I didn't realize this until I had children myself. I remember reaching my teenage years and cursing the dull, boring, culturally bankrupt suburbian neighborhood I grew up in. I left the minute it became feasible. Fast forward to now, and I'm right back in the 'burbs, in a house where my kids have access to safe streets, park…

>Suburbia exists because people want a quiet, relatively safe place for their kids to grow up.

No, that's not why modern sprawling suburbia exists. For most of American history, cities have been home to the middle class and wealthy. Not having to travel far for work or entertainment is a luxury, and middle class and wealthy Americans took advantage of it just like their world counterparts. The Bronx, for instance, was full of middle class families.

However, unlike many parts of the world, America had a terrible race problem. What do you do if you're a racist white American who holds that blacks are inferior, criminals, and going to rape your daughters after smoking the devil's weed? You enact legal prohibitions against them, of course. Squeeze them into one part of the city full of concentrated poverty.

But then courts started overturning legal prohibitions against minorities as attitudes against them improved. Schools were integrated. You even might have to work along side them. That's scary to racists who believed they were all criminals.

It's clear that racist covenants were on their way out, so directly mentioning race wasn't a good enough solution. But you still want race-based results. What do we do? Incomes amongst whites are higher today, and that was true back in the day. We can exploit that to keep blacks out, and as a bonus we can keep out the poor in general.

But we can't just slap up a 'no poors allowed' sign; that would be bad PR. What can we do?

Wait, I know! We can make it illegal to build housing that would be affordable for the poor. Since the poor are less likely to drive, we can also legally force all houses and businesses to cater to cars. If we couple that with laws that make it so our yards are big, and that houses, businesses, schools, etc. are all not near each other, then we can make it so that the poor can never afford these areas.

The beauty of this strategy is it allows co-opting non-racists. You're building the city of the future, as utopian 1950s urban planners thought. A world where no one has to walk because magical cars will save us from all social ills. Good schools, magically no traffic on the way to work, more space, who would be against that?

All we have to do is demolish large portions of urban neighborhoods, enact very restrictive zoning laws that exclude the poor and minorities, and then spend trillions (in current dollars) to build the interstates to make it all work.

Yeah, we'll wreck the environment, kill off passenger rail and public transit, cause urban blight, reduce economic growth, and drastically increase the price of housing (although that would take a generation or two to make it so the young couldn't afford housing, by which time we'll own housing anyways so that we can profit from that explosive housing price growth), but we'll finally never have to see a person with more melanin than us. It'll be great!

And that's how sprawling suburbs in America came about. There are harsh laws that enforce it, as otherwise it is not economical. Even just the laws that require free parking to be provided greatly increase the cost of construction and make many areas impossible to build in.

Yes, even Houston, the magical land without zoning (but many laws that are part of other cities' zoning codes, like minimum lot sizes, setbacks, parking requirements, etc.) has this. Even big cities like NYC, SF, Chicago, and DC got in on the utopian 50s vision.

You name your American city or town, and I will find the laws the force sprawling if they are online (not all towns have their zoning codes online). I can discuss at length the various enforcement mechanisms.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#117

Suburbia exists because people want a quiet, relatively safe place for their kids to grow up. I didn't realize this until I had children myself. I remember reaching my teenage years and cursing the dull, boring, culturally bankrupt suburbian neighborhood I grew up in. I left the minute it became feasible. Fast forward to now, and I'm right back in the 'burbs, in a house where my kids have access to safe streets, park…

> Suburbia exists because people want a quiet, relatively safe place for their kids to grow up.

Yes, but people are making their decision based on out-of-date facts. Because in the United States in 2016, mortality risk goes down as population density goes up, and city kids are statistically safer.

The #1 killer of children in US is car accidents. Guess who gets in dramatically less car accidents? City kids who don't need to ride in cars so much.

The #2 killer of children in the US is guns, and child gun deaths are higher outside the cities, on average. People often don't believe this, but it should be obvious when you pause and consider where American gun culture is centered. It's not in the big cities.

Suicide and substance abuse rates are also lower in the cities. This may be caused by the many small towns with major meth and opioid epidemics pulling down the statistics.

(All of this depends on comparing apples-to-apples: being poor makes a bigger difference than the urban vs rural split, so you need to consider people at the same socioeconomic level.)

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#118

It seems like people like Suburbia. A lot of people buy houses and live in Suburbia. Something seems to be right about it. Maybe we should look at is popularity before saying it sucks. Try to figure out why it's popular. What is going on there? That would be an interesting read.

> Maybe we should look at is popularity before saying it sucks. Try to figure out why it's popular. What is going on there? That would be an interesting read.

From what I've learned reading here today, I like suburbia because I'm one of the closed-minded, bigoted sheep, and the only cure is for me to live in a City.

See how well this works? If everything about suburbia is bad, and reinforces the bad parts of human nature, they don't need to look any deeper...

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#119
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cities in the U.S. where you can walk around are pretty much completely unaffordable to all but the extremely wealthy. My wife and I wanted to move to Boston but couldn't find a house in a decent (walking) neighborhood for under 500k. Of course this would be cheap compared to say San Francisco. Chicago might come the closest to being somewhat affordable in the walkable parts, but I haven't checked recently.

Come visit uptown Minneapolis some time. It is a vibrant place with thrift stores, co-ops, and delicious restaurants with fresh food and cheap happy hours. You can rent a studio/1BR for as low as $600. Houses can be had for as low as 100k. I currently rent a 1br with a huge deck and skyline view of Downtown for $900. I can walk to the co-op and coffee shops, don't need a car for anything except getting to my silly su…

> Houses can be had for as low as 100k.

Can they?

I'm looking at Redfin right now, and they claim the average home price in Uptown, Minneapolis, MN right now is $600k.

There's a few cheap 1 bedrooms apartments, but anything else is way in the realm of "completely unaffordable to all but the extremely wealthy"

I see lots of cheap housing in Minneapolis. But it's all suburban in nature. (Either actually suburban, or 'technically-inside-the-city' single-family homes that are effectively suburban.

Re: Why Suburbia Sucks

#120
post #74
post #51

One thing I can't fathom about cities in North America is this sharp division between residential areas and shopping areas. I'm by no means a world expert, but the places I've been to (Middle East where I grew up, Japan which I visited a couple of times) don't have this sharp distinction. Sure, there are residential areas and there are shopping areas, but every residential area will have many small shops here and the…

I live in a newer U.S. city and this couldn't be any further from the truth. e.g. Walmart is < 2 miles away.

Do you walk to this Wal-Mart? I live one mile away from the closest grocery store and I still drive.
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