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Two-Thirds of Americans Would Utilize High-Speed Rail If It Was Available

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Re: Two-Thirds of Americans Would Utilize High-Speed Rail If It Was Available

#21

Post by eli_gottlieb »

ghaff wrote: post #18
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's easy to tell a pollster you're for high speed rail but how many will actually buy a ticket? Perhaps they should ask for them to prepay for a ticket? I use the MBTA on a fairly frequent basis. I would use it every day if biking didn't half my commute time. I've also used Megabus to visit New York City, for day trips even, Acela for an interview in New York once, and a short domestic air flight to visit a friend…

Well, Acela isn't really high speed rail; it only shaves off about an hour compared to the regular train (and costs around twice as much). But, that aside, Acela is really competing with air. Their bread and butter traveler is traveling on business and they're taking Acela over a plane because they prefer to travel on Acela for a variety of reasons. They don't really care about cost within reason. Those same traveler…

Right. Having train travel target business travelers who are neither price-sensitive nor particularly time-sensitive is a choice -- a political choice. For instance, when we say that buses "can take advantage of a a road network that already exists and that they don't need to maintain (other than whatever taxes they pay)", that doesn't mean the infrastructure doesn't need to be paid-for, it means someone other than the transit supplier is paying for it. Why do we suffer this delusion that Amtrak should have fewer eminent-domain rights and take in fewer tax dollars than the highway system, and then act surprised that nobody takes Amtrak?

It's like complaining that fruit trees die when you refuse to water them.

Re: Two-Thirds of Americans Would Utilize High-Speed Rail If It Was Available

#22

Post by dvanduzer »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #2

This would seem pretty clear when California voters (notorious for not voting in taxes or bonds) approved the high speed rail project. What was even more interesting were the forces that came out against it and how they have acted.

What would be the equivalence class of Nancy Reagan (or whoever it was) tying speed limits to interstate high funding?

Seems we could use something like that for revamping Amtrak.

Re: Two-Thirds of Americans Would Utilize High-Speed Rail If It Was Available

#23

Post by BuckRogers »

slg wrote: post #15

Years ago I thought the idea of regional high speed rail lines in the US was a great idea, but I think the time for that has come and gone. The future seems to be clearly moving towards autonomous cars (and buses one presumes). Why sink billions into high speed rail when on our current pace it will be only a couple decades before we have all electric cars powered by solar and other clean energy sources that are 90 so…

I think it would be ideal to have it all. Autonomous cars acting as taxis for cheap when you arrive in a city and also high speed rail lines as alternatives to flights to get to another city. Autonomous buses will basically be the new electric street cars. Do their route, stop and plug themselves in to charge, then off to take over a route when needed.

That will happen. What's going to be difficult is the high speed rail to compete against the airlines. I would really prefer an alternative to air travel myself. I hate it and the type of people that seem to be in airports from security to passengers.

Re: Two-Thirds of Americans Would Utilize High-Speed Rail If It Was Available

#24

Post by jacques_chester »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #14
rmason wrote: post #5

My father told me a story about discontinuing a street car line (called an interurban) in a town North of Detroit. There was a hearing at city hall and hundreds of villagers turned out. Dozens of people made the case to keep the line. Finally the street car company's lawyer got up and made the business case for discontinuing the line. He concluded by asking the crowd how many of you used our company's street car to g…

>It's easy to tell a pollster you're for high speed rail but how many will actually buy a ticket? Perhaps they should ask for them to prepay for a ticket? I use the MBTA on a fairly frequent basis. I would use it every day if biking didn't half my commute time. I've also used Megabus to visit New York City, for day trips even, Acela for an interview in New York once, and a short domestic air flight to visit a friend…

> the airline flight took about two to three hours

Only if you assume that getting to and from the airport, and getting through security, and boarding, are all instant.

Megabus drop and pickup in Manhattan. Acela goes to and from 34th st. Neither require me to play strip tease or watch 45 minutes of idiotic bin-shoving pantomimes.

The nearest airport to Manhattan is LGA, it takes 30-40 minutes depending on traffic. JFK and EWR are 40-60 depending on traffic. None of them have direct subway or rail connections, so you have to either take a car or cobble together various public transportation options (subway then bus, subway then shuttle, subway then taxi, train then monorail) with frequently unsynchronised schedules.

The idea that air travel is more convenient than the Acela train in the NE corridor is just silly.

Re: Two-Thirds of Americans Would Utilize High-Speed Rail If It Was Available

#25

Post by Esau »

rmason wrote: post #5

My father told me a story about discontinuing a street car line (called an interurban) in a town North of Detroit. There was a hearing at city hall and hundreds of villagers turned out. Dozens of people made the case to keep the line. Finally the street car company's lawyer got up and made the business case for discontinuing the line. He concluded by asking the crowd how many of you used our company's street car to g…

This tale reminds me of the scene in the movie Singles, where the protagonist is working to create a new train, but is denied by the mayor because he knows that "people love their cars".

Re: Two-Thirds of Americans Would Utilize High-Speed Rail If It Was Available

#26

Post by freditup »

There was a previous article[0]/discussion[1] on HN that contained a similar map of proposed high speed rail lines. This previous map made less sense because it encouraged building out new HSR lines across the vast expanses on the American midwest.

I like this new map better though - HSR makes the most sense for medium-distant transit. The Mid-Atlantic/New England area is a perfect example of a region where a lot of mid-distance travel happens. The current rail lines are okay but not fantastic and improved lines would be a positive for travelers.

[0]: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/17/opinion/sunday/a-new-map-f... [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11506446

Re: Two-Thirds of Americans Would Utilize High-Speed Rail If It Was Available

#27

Post by ghaff »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #21
ghaff wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Acela isn't really high speed rail; it only shaves off about an hour compared to the regular train (and costs around twice as much). But, that aside, Acela is really competing with air. Their bread and butter traveler is traveling on business and they're taking Acela over a plane because they prefer to travel on Acela for a variety of reasons. They don't really care about cost within reason. Those same traveler…

Right. Having train travel target business travelers who are neither price-sensitive nor particularly time-sensitive is a choice -- a political choice. For instance, when we say that buses "can take advantage of a a road network that already exists and that they don't need to maintain (other than whatever taxes they pay)", that doesn't mean the infrastructure doesn't need to be paid-for, it means someone other than t…

>and then act surprised that nobody takes Amtrak

But lots of people take Amtrak in the Northeast Corridor--enough to subsidize the rest of the system. The problem is that there aren't any other areas in the country that are as well-suited for busy inter-city rail as the Boston to DC corridor. Almost everything else is lower density and further apart.

I'm not an expert on transportation cost structures but my observation in most places in the world is that, given a decent highway system, buses are going to beat intercity trains every time when it comes to price.

Re: Two-Thirds of Americans Would Utilize High-Speed Rail If It Was Available

#28

Post by WalterBright »

I'd prefer a more modest speed rail that went from where I am to somewhere I want to go. It does no good at all to travel at high speeds somewhere else, when all that saved time is more than lost trying to get from else to where I want to go.

I'd even prefer slower rail to my car, because I can read on the train, and I don't have to spend 5-10 min parking.

Re: Two-Thirds of Americans Would Utilize High-Speed Rail If It Was Available

#29

Post by hodwik »

RodericDay wrote: post #16
slg wrote: post #15

Years ago I thought the idea of regional high speed rail lines in the US was a great idea, but I think the time for that has come and gone. The future seems to be clearly moving towards autonomous cars (and buses one presumes). Why sink billions into high speed rail when on our current pace it will be only a couple decades before we have all electric cars powered by solar and other clean energy sources that are 90 so…

This completely excludes "walkable cities" out of the equation. If everyone is moving around on their autonomous vehicles that means that the entire city is criss-crossed with wide roads that take up tons of space, instead of dense walkable city centers with big transit corridors. Compare LA and SF to NYC and MTL.

The personal autonomous car is just the first, simplest version of the autonomous vehicles.

It won't be long before much smaller, short-distance, rentable systems come out -- self-balancing cycles that convert to cycle-trains, and so forth.

As autonomous vehicles makes roads much safer, two-wheel systems that are currently too dangerous will become much safer, and much more desirable.

As people are less inclined to own their own vehicle, and as delivery systems are more common, there will be less incentive to own a large car. People will rent two-wheel autonomous bikes instead of four-wheel autonomous cars, if its going to cost half as much.

The profit motive alone will solve these issues.

Re: Two-Thirds of Americans Would Utilize High-Speed Rail If It Was Available

#30

Post by ghaff »

jacques_chester wrote: post #24
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's easy to tell a pollster you're for high speed rail but how many will actually buy a ticket? Perhaps they should ask for them to prepay for a ticket? I use the MBTA on a fairly frequent basis. I would use it every day if biking didn't half my commute time. I've also used Megabus to visit New York City, for day trips even, Acela for an interview in New York once, and a short domestic air flight to visit a friend…

> the airline flight took about two to three hours Only if you assume that getting to and from the airport, and getting through security, and boarding, are all instant. Megabus drop and pickup in Manhattan. Acela goes to and from 34th st. Neither require me to play strip tease or watch 45 minutes of idiotic bin-shoving pantomimes. The nearest airport to Manhattan is LGA, it takes 30-40 minutes depending on traffic. J…

Personally, I prefer taking the train in the Northeast Corridor but:

1. There is a regular train from EWR right into Penn Station

2. Even though the train is more convenient in a number of ways, flying can get me from Boston into Manhattan earlier in the day than the train. Usually doesn't matter, but it may if you have a morning meeting and can't come down the previous night.

3. Although I've taken it, the Acela all the way from Boston to DC starts to not make sense vs. flying--and tends to cost more as well.

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