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Medical Equipment Crashes During Heart Procedure Because of Antivirus Scan

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Re: Medical Equipment Crashes During Heart Procedure Because of Antivirus Scan

#51
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the article, it was the hospital IT that misconfigured the antivirus, not the application developers. Is there some reason to believe this wouldn't occur on a Linux system? There are plenty of dumb IA requirements that antivirus be installed on Linux, too.

Hardware involved in heart surgery running a Linux system should have literally the bare minimum of software to run it. That means kernel, init, networks support (dhcpcd, systemd-networkd, if absolutely necessary samba, sshd, etc) and custom software running on top of that as nobody. Not some ~20GB of Microsoft crap driving the system to crash every couple days.

> Not some ~20GB of Microsoft crap driving the system to crash every couple days.

I agree the system should be running as few services and as little other third-party software as possible, but let's be fair. Since at least Windows 7 / 2008R2, particularly for an offline system, the OS is not going to crash unless there is a hardware problem. It's not clear the OS crashed even in the article - "the screen went black" (the application went black?) and they "had to reboot" doesn't give us enough information.

A modern Windows system, like a modern Linux or a modern FreeBSD, is stable and will stay up for as long as you need it to, unless as I said before, there is a hardware problem. (Or in the case of consumer Windows, you do an update.)

EDIT: According to the actual report, the OS was not rebooted, the application was. There was no Windows crash.

> On (b)(6) 2016, a customer reported to merge healthcare that, in the middle of a heart catheterization procedure, the hemo monitor pc lost communication with the hemo client and the hemo monitor went black. Information obtained from the customer indicated that there was a delay of about 5 minutes while the patient was sedated so that the application could be rebooted. It was found that anti-malware software was performing hourly scans. With merge hemo not presenting physiological data during treatment, there is a potential for a delay in care that results in harm to the patient. However, it was reported that the procedure was completed successfully once the application was rebooted.

Re: Medical Equipment Crashes During Heart Procedure Because of Antivirus Scan

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Second this. It is terrifying to know that mission critical, medical grade software runs on a consumer operating system. Military/aerospace systems have numerous requirements and clearly defined practices and ways of developing these systems, often going through various layers of documentation and using specifically designed programming languages(like the Z programming language) to write specifications, which are the…

Then this story about viruses at a nuclear power plant won't make you feel any better: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-nuclearpower-cyber-germany... Some great quotes: "Mikko Hypponen, chief research officer for Finland-based F-Secure, said that infections of critical infrastructure were surprisingly common" "Hypponen said he had recently spoken to a European aircraft maker that said it cleans the cockpits of its p…

> The malware spread to the planes only because factory employees were charging their phones with the USB port in the cockpit.

The moral of the story: If you include any kind of port in something, people WILL plug things into it sooner or later.

Re: Medical Equipment Crashes During Heart Procedure Because of Antivirus Scan

#53
I see a bunch of folks talking about whether PCs are connected to the Internet and "why was it running antivirus in the first place?" It's called Defense in Depth.

It Does Not Matter if the device is connected to/able to reach the Internet.

First, it probably can reach the Internet in some way simply by being networked. I don't think I've ever seen a medical office (can't speak about hospitals) where medical diagnostic equipment was on a fully-separate network able only to talk to other network equipment and specified data destinations (PACS servers).

Second, I'm not concerned about unpatched, unprotected machines being infected from the Internet. Odds are they're running a restricted version of Windows, with a custom shell and a lot of stuff stripped out. I'm concerned that they're going to be infected by another machine on the network that's gotten infected. With all the past SQL Server security issues a decade or more ago, how many people think those SQL Server boxes could be directly reached from outside the local network?

The conjunction of those two is that even if you firewall all that stuff off, the PACS servers are still on both networks, and are probably running much more interesting and vulnerable stuff than the device controllers.

Sure you can fully wall everything off - it's really easy, just do your X-rays onto film, burn your MRIs and ultrasounds onto CDs, and print your EKGs for later scanning. Oh, and listen to people complain about how out-of-date your systems and procedures are.

There are other factors that come in as well - sure, every device manufacturer could provide fully bespoke diagnostic displays developed from the ground up in artisanal software shops providing full employment for assembly programmers working on embedded systems, along with cohorts of graphic designers creating glorious steampunk-styled interfaces. That's a beautiful dream, keep having it.

For the rest of the world, creating a UI on that custom embedded system running on something from RIM/Blackberry (yeah, they own QNX) is just going to get them crap from people because of A) how clunky it probably looks and B) How could they even consider allowing direct user interaction with the RTOS that was chosen to ensure that the dangerous bits in contact with patients/radiation/irradiated patients were safe?

There's a beautiful world out there somewhere where everything is safe and secure and seamless and updated. The rest of us live in worlds where Joe in Marketing's PC gets infected with something that allows an attacker to start scanning the network for unpatched vulnerabilities on any system, which leads to an out-of-date install of IIS on a legacy server that hasn't been updated because there's no longer a contract with the vendor (or no vendor) but it's around because there's a statutory requirement to keep the data on that system for 7-10 years.

There's a lot of ugliness out there. Antivirus is a way to try to ensure that when (not if) some of it hits you the repercussions are minimized.

Re: Medical Equipment Crashes During Heart Procedure Because of Antivirus Scan

#54
post #17

Is it going to take more deaths to convince people to learn from the Therac-25[1]? If you aren't designing for safety first , you have no business working on medical devices or anything else that might be a dangerous when it misbehaves. [1] http://sunnyday.mit.edu/papers/therac.pdf

I am not the parent poster, but may I ask why is this comment being down-voted? I'm not speaking for the parent, but he or she seems to be implying that medical equipment with anti-virus software with automatic updates (used as such) may potentially compromise a patient's safety, and may be indicative of further bad design practices, which could result in, at worst, death. Is this somehow off-topic, or not worthy of…

Because it's really disingenuous to say that the medical device industry hasn't learned anything from Therac 25. The concept of two-fault failures is an industry standard that was learned from Therac.

The fact is that in the Medical software industry the best practice is to manage the entire software configuration of the medical device. Failing to do so, and especially failing to adhere to the guidelines of the manufacturer, is negligent at best. We all know that the behavior that led to the hazard is the wrong thing to do and that somebody screwed up.

The only other real insight that can be gained from this incident is that it's very important to have configuration management procedures that are easy to follow, and it's important to verify that they were correctly followed. I can't tell whether they were in this case, but I suspect given the use of Off-the-shelf software that there was some manual sequence of steps required to adhere to the approved configuration. Given that, I would have expected an error of this magnitude, because it's well known that humans make mistakes whenever they are made to follow a sequence of steps. The configuration should have been verified at installation time, at least.

If you're interested in the kinds of things the industry has to consider in the US, take a look at the FDA guidance for the 510k submittal process.

Re: Medical Equipment Crashes During Heart Procedure Because of Antivirus Scan

#55
post #26

This situation is even funnier(and sadly very seriously flawed) in Japan. Medical equipment require an authorization to use. Any change to the medical equipment requires another authorization or it's prohibited. By "any change" , it includes Windows Update(it changes the system obviously). The result: they use anti-malware software to protect(or rather, believed to protect) unpatched Windows. At least one anti-malwar…

But... what about AV/malware definition updates? Doesn't that fall under "any change"?

Re: Medical Equipment Crashes During Heart Procedure Because of Antivirus Scan

#56
post #19

Antivirus scans are one of those things added on IT checklists to cover their ass whenever something wrong happens. But it rarely is useful. It only causes problems. We've seen so many issues related to virus scans throughout the years it's crazy. What's better is to lock down the servers with only minimal access. I haven't used virus scan on my main desktop for over 10 years because I don't click on weird emails and…

Most of the time IT is just implementing policy from the CIO, which is basing it on the requirements of the company's insurers. Insurance companies require some very annoying things like Anti-virus. It's like having a lock on your office. You do it so the insurance company will pay you if someone comes in and steals your stuff.

It's more like the requirements cronies put into defense contracts to make sure the contractors make a lot of money.

The reason "security requirements" documents require antivirus is that companies like Symantec make sure they're in the right position to be the ones asked when someone is writing up a security requirements document, so that their answer can be "make sure you install antivirus (and here's the contact info for our volume licensing center)."

Re: Medical Equipment Crashes During Heart Procedure Because of Antivirus Scan

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have it backwards (no disrespect intended). When you evaluate the choice of Windows you have to acknowledge that it brings with it the vulnerability of viruses and so the necessity of anti-virus software. Either you own that decision, and as part of your support your tool provides the necessary antivirus and you also insure through testing configuration management that its configured appropriately, or you…

> When you evaluate the choice of Windows you have to acknowledge that it brings with it the vulnerability of viruses and so the necessity of anti-virus software. No matter what OS you choose it is vulnerable to viruses. You and I will agree that the odds are your Windows system is much more at risk by at least an order of magnitude. But the IA people who demanded that this system run antivirus are just as likely to…

Is the day to day impact of antivirus on Linux the same as on Windows?

Re: Medical Equipment Crashes During Heart Procedure Because of Antivirus Scan

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This This machines costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. There should be no excuse for using Windows. None. I would not be surprised if the "antivirus" thing was some PHB requirement

Is there a reason to believe that choosing Windows was a bad decision? The bad decision was installing antivirus software. Otherwise, most any modern OS would be fine. This machine probably shouldn't be connected to a network (if it was), the USB ports should be disabled; data can come off on burned CDs, autorun should be disabled, etc. That's how you deal with IA concerns on a standalone mission-critical system, not…

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