GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa • Hacker News Board

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#161

Post by mac01021 » Sat, May 07, 2016, 1:03 AM UTC

Pyxl101 wrote: post #51

awt wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wealth of a society is a reflection of the quality of the people in the society. 10 million in my hands isn't worth as much as 10 million in the hands of warren buffet.

You're making a good point, and I'm sad that you're being downvoted. People who win a fortune by the lottery often lose all their money shortly afterwards, even those people who intend to save and invest it. The reality is that some people are better than others at turning capital into gains through investment. There's definitely luck involved too, but Buffet knows how to buy a business, be its steward, and generate…

If you're going to define the wealth of a society to be the sum (or the average) of the wealths of its members, then you're probably correct that, in general, UBI or other redistribution of wealth does not lead to a wealthier society.

But total global wealth is probably not what the aid-givers are trying to maximize here. In fact, I think pretty much nobody is ever trying to maximize that.

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#162

Post by wcummings » Sat, May 07, 2016, 1:29 AM UTC

skunkworks wrote: post #139

mwambua wrote: post #124

I'm a Kenyan and I can tell you that this will do more harm than good. NGO money has been distorting our economy for years now... giving people livelihoods they can't sustain, making job opportunities that create no value and making our government vestigial. The poor people that you're supporting elect the same corrupt politicians every year because they have no idea that the government is supposed to be supporting t…

How are poor people supposed to find innovative solutions to their problems and elect governments that create sustainable wealth while they're steeped in desperate poverty? I believe that education is the tip of the spear, but are there any examples where a poor majority has pulled itself up by its bootstraps?

Loads of examples, as a result of international trade

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#163

Post by wcummings » Sat, May 07, 2016, 1:29 AM UTC

skunkworks wrote: post #139

mwambua wrote: post #124

I'm a Kenyan and I can tell you that this will do more harm than good. NGO money has been distorting our economy for years now... giving people livelihoods they can't sustain, making job opportunities that create no value and making our government vestigial. The poor people that you're supporting elect the same corrupt politicians every year because they have no idea that the government is supposed to be supporting t…

How are poor people supposed to find innovative solutions to their problems and elect governments that create sustainable wealth while they're steeped in desperate poverty? I believe that education is the tip of the spear, but are there any examples where a poor majority has pulled itself up by its bootstraps?

Loads of examples, as a result of international trade

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#164

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, May 07, 2016, 1:42 AM UTC

home_boi wrote: post #137

dragonwriter wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why wouldn't I just let someone else figure out how to automate jobs? I've got my income. Empirically, people often expend effort to increase their income when there are opportunities available, even if their current income meets basic survival needs. I don't see why that wouldn't continue to be the case with basic income. What, people are going to stop wanting luxuries?

>What, people are going to stop wanting luxuries? Yes, check out /r/financialindependence There's thousands of people living frugally to retire early with ~1-2 million which is basically UBI over a lifetime

"Thousands of people" isn't a very large portion of the population.

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#165

Post by patrickaljord » Sat, May 07, 2016, 2:04 AM UTC

nathanappere wrote: post #156

rayiner wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the western world?

(So all Kenya needs to do is create a colonial empire and exploit other countries ?)

The western world was already the most advanced and richest part of the world before they started colonizing, which indeed made them even richer. Note that the people they conquered whether it were the Incas or else were also empire with colonial ambitions, except they were way less advanced.

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#166

Post by chrischen » Sat, May 07, 2016, 2:11 AM UTC

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #154

mwambua wrote: post #124

I'm a Kenyan and I can tell you that this will do more harm than good. NGO money has been distorting our economy for years now... giving people livelihoods they can't sustain, making job opportunities that create no value and making our government vestigial. The poor people that you're supporting elect the same corrupt politicians every year because they have no idea that the government is supposed to be supporting t…

Your government is already vestigial, I'm sorry to say. Giving aid is the worst thing possible if its given to the state. But giving it to the citizens is perhaps better, because they can directly improve their lives by investing in their children, in better tools, and in things like cattle that can directly generate sustainable income. Free money won't destroy your society. It's how that free money comes into your s…

It's unclear what the effects of a basic income would be in an undeveloped country.

For example, if a poorer country raised minimum wage too much it could destroy the economy whereas the same raise in a more developed country will have better short term effects.

This could end up being unethical economic experimentation.

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#167

Post by StephenCanis » Sat, May 07, 2016, 2:23 AM UTC

chrischen wrote: post #166

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your government is already vestigial, I'm sorry to say. Giving aid is the worst thing possible if its given to the state. But giving it to the citizens is perhaps better, because they can directly improve their lives by investing in their children, in better tools, and in things like cattle that can directly generate sustainable income. Free money won't destroy your society. It's how that free money comes into your s…

It's unclear what the effects of a basic income would be in an undeveloped country. For example, if a poorer country raised minimum wage too much it could destroy the economy whereas the same raise in a more developed country will have better short term effects. This could end up being unethical economic experimentation.

That's a bad example since raising minimum wage increases the cost of doing business. Artificially changing the cost of business inputs causes problems in the economy - not the fact that people are earning more money.

Giving people money allows them to buy livestock, supplies for their children or food and shelter. This will help to improve their quality of life and spur the local economy. I'm hard pressed to see how this could be considered unethical.

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#168

Post by azernik » Sat, May 07, 2016, 3:22 AM UTC

chrischen wrote: post #166

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your government is already vestigial, I'm sorry to say. Giving aid is the worst thing possible if its given to the state. But giving it to the citizens is perhaps better, because they can directly improve their lives by investing in their children, in better tools, and in things like cattle that can directly generate sustainable income. Free money won't destroy your society. It's how that free money comes into your s…

It's unclear what the effects of a basic income would be in an undeveloped country. For example, if a poorer country raised minimum wage too much it could destroy the economy whereas the same raise in a more developed country will have better short term effects. This could end up being unethical economic experimentation.

I think more scary is the macroeconomic effects of a large amount of cash on currencies and prices. $30m is a relatively small amount (compared to a total GDP of e.g. more than $50b for Kenya), but of concentrated in poor areas could have unintended effects.

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#169

Post by jijji » Sat, May 07, 2016, 3:51 AM UTC

sounds like another 319 scam waiting to happen. bye bye money. all you have to do is read the thousands of stories about different governments or NGO's attempting to "help", or "fund", or "develop" projects in that part of the world and all the people have done was squander the money. History repeats itself if you don't learn from its mistakes. I think a better place to flush money down the toilet is to use an actual toilet, at least you know where its going.

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#170

Post by thaumasiotes » Sat, May 07, 2016, 4:23 AM UTC

zardo wrote: post #20

troycarlson wrote: post #4

Recently fascinated by the thought of piping donations directly to poor populations and allowing them to use it as they wish. I watched the documentary Poverty, Inc. [0] regarding the "poverty industry" and how endless foreign aid in these countries is killing the economy. If Toms shoes dumps 1,000 pairs of shoes in the city center every week, how the hell would a cobbler stay in business. Or if the U.S. pumps an end…

>Economies don't spring up out of a pile of free rice. Rice is a viable basis for a currency, it worked for China for a thousand years. Maybe the free rice piles just aren't big enough.

Well, you might want to qualify "it worked". There's a reason they moved to silver.

There was a point, when taxes were still assessed in rice, that the relevant official announced a large tax increase because the government just wasn't able to operate on what it was getting from existing taxes. He also started the process of reforming tax delivery, largely by making sure tax barges could make their way down the river without excessive delays. They had been arriving nearly (or completely!) empty thanks to predation by vermin.

The delivery reform was so successful that the tax increase was canceled. There were no (significantly problematic) issues with taxes not getting paid; expenditures were well within tax revenues; but... using rice as a currency meant that just because somebody paid you money didn't mean you actually received any.