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Tesla Shakes Up Market for Lithium, Other Metals

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Re: Tesla Shakes Up Market for Lithium, Other Metals

#21

Post by tkahnoski »

mtgx wrote: post #7
oflannabhra wrote: post #5

The headline is a misquote. The actual quote, from Musk in the article, is "In order to produce half a million cars a year…we would basically need to absorb the entire world’s lithium-ion production." That is very different that the entire world's lithium production.

Which is just another variation of something he's said since he announced the Gigafactory - "We'll produce more than the entire world's capacity of batteries."

It's fascinating to read some of the other related articles on the Internet. There's a lot investment analysis going into whether the EV market will cause a "Peak Lithium" like "Peak Oil".

It could happen, however given how Tesla has already made moves to create a giga-factory to avoid "Peak Battery" pricing they likely already have a supply solution in mind.

Re: Tesla Shakes Up Market for Lithium, Other Metals

#22

Post by mrob »

no1youknowz wrote: post #9
ck2 wrote: post #3

There is no shortage of lithium, even the USA has lots of it (owned by Canadian companies). It's just they don't want to mine it until the price is much higher. Kind of like oil vs gas prices. But I am curious to see what the next level beyond lithium is for compact power storage. Lithium can't be the end of the line.

Where are we with the next-gen battery tech? It's like every 5 years we see some research lab announce a breakthrough but as if yet no real progress. You would have thought it would be a priority for Musk to research next-gen batteries in a really serious way.

Sodium ion might be a good option in the future. Energy density will probably never be as good as lithium ion, but cost is significantly lower, and it has the great advantage of being similar enough to lithium ion that it can be built with only small modifications to existing lithium ion manufacturing equipment.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/a-firs...

Re: Tesla Shakes Up Market for Lithium, Other Metals

#23

Post by ipince »

mchannon wrote: post #14

Lithium doesn't weigh much of anything (even compared to oil), so a ton of Lithium is a LOT of lithium. Since as a commodity it's never traded in metallic form (too hazardous and energy-intensive to get it there, and not much market for straight metal, even as an input to battery production). It tends to be traded as carbonate, so a ton of lithium carbonate still has a very small amount of lithium in it. The article…

I want to help too!

Re: Tesla Shakes Up Market for Lithium, Other Metals

#24

Post by hinkley »

mtgx wrote: post #7
oflannabhra wrote: post #5

The headline is a misquote. The actual quote, from Musk in the article, is "In order to produce half a million cars a year…we would basically need to absorb the entire world’s lithium-ion production." That is very different that the entire world's lithium production.

Which is just another variation of something he's said since he announced the Gigafactory - "We'll produce more than the entire world's capacity of batteries."

And I'm still trying to figure out why everyone thinks this is a big deal.

Lots and lots and lots of companies end up at some point representing 50% of all sales, products, or activity in their market.

Hell, even Starbucks was opening coffee shops so fast they were targeting owning half of all coffee shops on the planet.

If he said he needed to quadruple the world output, I might furrow a brow. If he said he needed 8 times the world supply, I'd think he was nuts.

Double? That's just a really big growth market.

Re: Tesla Shakes Up Market for Lithium, Other Metals

#25

Post by hinkley »

Eric_WVGG wrote: post #20

“that some call ‘white petroleum’” stop trying to make “fetch” happen

Utah Tea.

Well the next thing you know Elan's a billionaire.

The kinfolk said "hey move away from there!"

They said Californi' is the place you oughta be

So he loaded up the truck and he moved to Beverly

Re: Tesla Shakes Up Market for Lithium, Other Metals

#26

Post by simplemath »

mchannon wrote: post #14

Lithium doesn't weigh much of anything (even compared to oil), so a ton of Lithium is a LOT of lithium. Since as a commodity it's never traded in metallic form (too hazardous and energy-intensive to get it there, and not much market for straight metal, even as an input to battery production). It tends to be traded as carbonate, so a ton of lithium carbonate still has a very small amount of lithium in it. The article…

>I've found a way

wow. If you're not bullshitting, and your method is scalable,reliable,and cost-effective congratulations on changing the world.

Re: Tesla Shakes Up Market for Lithium, Other Metals

#27

Post by arprocter »

mchannon wrote: post #14

Lithium doesn't weigh much of anything (even compared to oil), so a ton of Lithium is a LOT of lithium. Since as a commodity it's never traded in metallic form (too hazardous and energy-intensive to get it there, and not much market for straight metal, even as an input to battery production). It tends to be traded as carbonate, so a ton of lithium carbonate still has a very small amount of lithium in it. The article…

The Chilean nitrate mines are pretty interesting - short write up here http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/nitrate-towns-chile

There was also an episode of the Discovery documentary Forgotten Planet which covers it

Re: Tesla Shakes Up Market for Lithium, Other Metals

#28

Post by yread »

excalibur wrote: post #16
no1youknowz wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are we with the next-gen battery tech? It's like every 5 years we see some research lab announce a breakthrough but as if yet no real progress. You would have thought it would be a priority for Musk to research next-gen batteries in a really serious way.

Nice little round-up: http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/130380-future-batteries-comi... The comment about protecting commercial interests isn't wrong, but there is indeed a threshold coming where that won't be a valid reason to hold the technology back.

This one is missing

http://www.amjtj.com/en/projekty/vysokokapacitni-li-akumulat...

Re: Tesla Shakes Up Market for Lithium, Other Metals

#29

Post by epistasis »

no1youknowz wrote: post #9
ck2 wrote: post #3

There is no shortage of lithium, even the USA has lots of it (owned by Canadian companies). It's just they don't want to mine it until the price is much higher. Kind of like oil vs gas prices. But I am curious to see what the next level beyond lithium is for compact power storage. Lithium can't be the end of the line.

Where are we with the next-gen battery tech? It's like every 5 years we see some research lab announce a breakthrough but as if yet no real progress. You would have thought it would be a priority for Musk to research next-gen batteries in a really serious way.

Lithium is pretty darn awesome battery tech, honestly! It is continuously improving faster than nearly anything else in the energy industry. Solar is obviously getting cheaper faster, and wind is getting cheaper with bigger turbines, but not much else changes in energy it seems.

Chains of hydrocarbons are a better storage form for compactness, but creating that chain and deconstructing that chain are hugely inefficient processes. We've only used them up until now because the planet had saved a huge amount of its previous solar energy in that form.

There are some interesting lithium flow batteries coming out that decouple the power of the battery from the amount of storage, so that should be fairly interesting to see.

Other flow batteries will also be quite interesting for stationary uses.

We'll need lots and lots of storage for both stationary and mobile applications. For mobile applications, I can't see anything beating lithium ion without a major breakthrough. That type of breakthrough is not what those seeming breakthroughs "every 5 years" are; those are university press releases. It's rare that the real breakthrough will get the press, because the disconnect between what's happening in the field and what's actually important is enormous (this goes for most forms of science, not just energy).

Re: Tesla Shakes Up Market for Lithium, Other Metals

#30

Post by LoSboccacc »

goda90 wrote: post #11
no1youknowz wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are we with the next-gen battery tech? It's like every 5 years we see some research lab announce a breakthrough but as if yet no real progress. You would have thought it would be a priority for Musk to research next-gen batteries in a really serious way.

Heck, I'd say I see an article about new battery developments multiple times a year. I wonder if the delay has as much or more to do with economics than actual research and development. It might not be in the best interest of a lot of players, whether that's battery manufacturers, or device manufacturers, to produce something that has improved longevity if that means fewer sales due to batteries wearing out.

Yeah last time they completely resolved memory problems and made batteries which basically lasted forewer. http://m.learningenglish.voanews.com/a/nanowires-battery/331...

I wish I could live in scientist land XD

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