Live data from Hacker News

SpaceX lands rocket at sea second time after satellite launch

phys.org

191–200 of 497 posts

Re: SpaceX lands rocket at sea second time after satellite launch

#191

Am i missing something, is the need to land vertically a requirement of a fragile fuselage? Seems wasteful to carry extra anything (in this case rocket propellant) to space, just to avoid having to re-right the rocket when you get it back on earth for a subsequent launch. Is extra fuel payload < landing gear or parachutes?

Parachutes aren't massless. The parachutes you'd need to land a rocket like this are actually comparable in mass to the extra fuel and landing legs needed for the vertical landing approach.

You also can't land on a ship with parachutes. You don't have enough control. You can still land at sea, but then you have to actually land in the water, which means getting seawater on all your rocket hardware. That causes lots of problems when you want to use that hardware again.

SpaceX did experiment with this approach. Here's a picture of the second Falcon 9's interstage with parachutes packed inside:

http://i.imgur.com/PGXIqKX.jpg

But it turned out not to work so well.

NASA had some success with this approach on the Shuttle SRBs. It's easier with solid fuel rockets, because they're less efficient and built tougher. Even then, the cost of recovery and refurbishment ended up roughly breaking even compared to just building new ones each time.

As far as "wasteful" goes, that depends on what you're looking at. Saving fuel for the landing subtracts from payload capacity, which is wasteful in theory... but in practice, many payloads are smaller than the maximum anyway. If you suffer a 30% payload penalty, but you're launching a satellite which is 40% smaller than your maximum, then who cares? The only waste is some extra fuel, which is super cheap. The full fuel load for a Falcon 9 launch is something like $200,000, compare to the total mission price of around $60 million.

Re: SpaceX lands rocket at sea second time after satellite launch

#192
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To expand on this slightly the CRS8 (and OG2, the land landing) landing was done using only 1 engine, which even then was presumably throttled. This landing burn was done using 3 engines so they spend less time below terminal velocity, and thus use less fuel. The total deceleration should be ~40 m/s during the burn.

40 m/s is a velocity, not an acceleration (deceleration). I guess that you mean 40 m/s^2

Oops, you are right, I did miss a ^2.

The approximation I had is almost certainly less reliable than flightclubs, not sure why it was so low, will have to look at the math I did and figure out what I screwed up.

Re: SpaceX lands rocket at sea second time after satellite launch

#193
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugh, I completely agree. I'm Canadian and it's been a dream of mine for a long time to work for SpaceX. I'll gladly take a big paycut and live in bumfuck nowhere, California to do it (my wife is another story but that's a different discussion). But every time this USA chant comes up I just imagine what it would be like to be in that crowd and be absolutely exhilarated at each success - not just for the company but fo…

As someone who works here and doesn't join in the chants but works closely with and respects many of the people that do, I find your description of them as "douchebags" to be rather uncalled for. You are certainly free to disagree with the chants or the overall tone that celebrations like this set within the company, but I don't think that resorting to personal insults is the best approach to having a nuanced discuss…

You're right, I should not have used that term. I apologize.

Re: SpaceX lands rocket at sea second time after satellite launch

#194

Am i missing something, is the need to land vertically a requirement of a fragile fuselage? Seems wasteful to carry extra anything (in this case rocket propellant) to space, just to avoid having to re-right the rocket when you get it back on earth for a subsequent launch. Is extra fuel payload < landing gear or parachutes?

I believe they did try or at least look into parachutes initially, but gave it up as not feasible.

With the powered landing, you already have the engines there, it's just a matter of leaving a bit more fuel. It's not a lot of fuel because you've already dropped a bunch of mass (the whole second stage and a bunch of fuel), and air is helping instead of hindering.

There's also the fact that, unlike parachutes, you can use a powered landing on Mars and the Moon.

Re: SpaceX lands rocket at sea second time after satellite launch

#195
post #186

Here is the video http://www.space.com/32811-spacex-rocket-landing-jcsat-14-la... Hopefully we won't have the typical hacker news discussion about why the employees chant USA.

What exactly is wrong with that discussion? I found the level of evangelical, employee circle jerking at these SpaceX events to be nauseating. And that was before they started chanting. Well done guys but it's just not necessary.

Good ol' HN. These folks are pushing the boundaries like nobody else, advancing humanity more than a thousand Facebooks or Snapchats ever could, but if they express pride in their work it's a "circle jerk."

Re: SpaceX lands rocket at sea second time after satellite launch

#196
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

please explain why this is a bad thing? American industry pushing the envelope and the people doing it aren't allowed to have pride?

It's a tribal chant, which is a bit different to having pride. Obviously the SpaceX staff can do whatever they want when they're celebrating a successful launch and landing. But all non-Americans who are watching and also feeling a lot of pride in what the company has achieved instantly feel alienated when the chant gets going because it's exclusionary. Whether the staff care about this alienation is another matter,…

I guarantee that nobody who worked their asses off to accomplish this amazing feat and chanted cares a single wit about your feelings of alienation and exclusion from their accomplishment. If you care that much about it, get competitive and get to work besting them.

The more space launch companies there are in competition, the better we are as a species. The chant is a call to you to get to work.

Re: SpaceX lands rocket at sea second time after satellite launch

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a reason why that guy answered it that way. Note these are my definitions but I've heard it before. Scientist: Studies and uncovers mysteries of the universe and natural world Engineer: Applies what scientists discovers

Eh, I think it's simpler than that: Scientist: Unknown outcome (e.g. hypothesis -> experimentation) Engineer: Known (or should be) outcome

There's also experimentation to generate hypotheses. I.e., let's sequence the genomes of healthy people and the genomes of people with some disease and see if there is a difference.

It's possible to argue that the implicit hypothesis there is that there is some sort of difference, but that is a particularly weak hypothesis compared to the specificity of hypotheses that can be formed once we have this pile of data -- i.e maybe X, Y, Z differences are important in this disease.

Re: SpaceX lands rocket at sea second time after satellite launch

#198
post #159
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are England supporters chanting after a soccer match aggro-patriotic douchebags? Aggro-patriotic douchebaggery isn't exactly unheard of when it comes to football stadiums. For some it's a feature, for most others it's a very well known bug. Also, you seem to have completely missed his finer point: a nuanced distinction between those who start and those who just sing along because they are in the mood for making noi…

> you seem to have completely missed his finer point That's because I don't think there is a finer point. If the only way a chant like that could happen is if it's started by aggro-patriotic douchebags, which specifically was the contention, then the chanting only exists as a result of aggro-patriotic douchebaggery. That's a slur that taints everyone involved in it, and I don't accept that at all.

I should not have used that term to diminish my point, I regret that.

My point was that Americans can claim all day and all night that "U-S-A" chants are not meant to insult or condescend to any other country. But ask around and I can tell you most other countries find it INCREDIBLY uncomfortable.

Sporting events are a completely appropriate venue for the release of testosterone and patriotism. The very nature of the event is a competition between Country X and Country Y.

I don't believe SpaceX's mission is to establish American dominance over other nations. Elon Musk spends a lot of time discussing his lofty aspirations for the future of humanity on Mars, about becoming a multi-planetary species, etc.

Re: SpaceX lands rocket at sea second time after satellite launch

#199
post #170
post #28

I always try to watch the webcasts and I can't help but cringe so hard when they start chanting 'USA USA USA', every single time. What is up with that?

It's a quirky American thing. But plenty of other countries do it to. Not surprisingly it originates in sports like most of these kinds of chants. Go to an international football/soccer match sometime and let me know how many national chants you hear. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwHFm3pBA90 ("TAE HAN MIN GUK!" "Great Korean People's Country") Here's a show giving fun lessons on how to properly do the chant https:…

> I've heard a bunch of Brits chant something similar "UK! UK! UK! UK!" before.

Are you sure they weren't just mocking Americans? :) c.f. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyHSjv9gxlE

Re: SpaceX lands rocket at sea second time after satellite launch

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slightly off topic but I was watching a television show the other day and someone said they worked at NASA. The host then said "So you're literally a rocket scientist?" And the guy said emphatically "Rocket engineer, there is a big difference" I'm sure this particular task probably was a little bit of both. After all, they had to run several real world experiments to prove their calculations.

Here's a reason why that guy answered it that way. Note these are my definitions but I've heard it before. Scientist: Studies and uncovers mysteries of the universe and natural world Engineer: Applies what scientists discovers

One thing I'd point out is that your model ought to include that engineering also quite often is forced to run ahead of science, too. Engineers don't have the luxury of waiting until science nails down every last parameter, Julius Ceasar wants his aqueduct now, and materials science isn't going to be around to help for another 1800 years or so.... and that's just an example, it happens all the time even today.
Post reply on HN